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Thread: Preload & bottomed out data needed.

  1. #41
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    In the past I've also been curious about the specs of the springs I've been putting in my rifles. If I were to refer to a chart, I'd also like to have (besides preload and compressed force):
    • Uncompressed (free) length (in)
    • Wire size (in)
    • Spring constant (lbs/in)
    • Coils per inch
    • Material

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmugPePe View Post
    I researched across interweb for the data on various buffer spring in their respective receiver extensions and I found shockingly that not one forum have pinned thread with all springs' s specs. There's shockingly lack of data on this subject overall and I set out to change that with help of m4c community.

    I attempted to find all information I seek myself by using limited data I found and math gymnastics. I come to those numbers below which I doubt all are accurate within half pound. I would like for owners of those system to confirm if those data are accurate within half of pound or correct me please. You can find out easily by compressing your spring and buffer until its lick under the length of respective appropriate buffer tube that it goes in on scale calibrated for the weight of clear tube or pvc plus spring and buffer and note the weight. After finding preload that was you then fully compress it until buffer bottom out if your scale can handle it and note the weight. If your scale cant handle the weight then you could even work around the issue by tying say 15LB dumbell to charging handle in manner dumbell would be dangling vertically able to stand on its bottom if landed on flat surface. You then slowly place dumbell upright on ground and lift rifle muzzle up and slowly land put dangling dumbell on scale until the bcg start move forward and note the weight. Then subtract the scale reading with actual weight of 15LB dumbbell which might not be 15LB. Or stand on different scale weighting yourself and have somebody bottom out the buffer on scale that you are standing on then subtract the result with your weight.

    (For the rifle spring in A5 I did some failed spring engineering calculation and using believed to be botched result which I keep doubting so I average it with basic parabola of rifle spring in rifle tube using three known points of relaxed length at 12.75 inch and zero force then 10inch with 5.61lb of force then roughly 4.8inch with force of 10.9LB )

    I do not have anything but carbine tube, red springco, and carbine spring.

    Original rifle spring in rifle tube
    5.61 LB preload - 10.9 LB buffer bottom out

    Original rifle spring in A5 tube
    7.84 LB preload - 10.9 LB buffer bottom out
    It just might be close to 7.21LB if spring calculation I did was right.

    Green springco in A5 tube
    Unknown but wild estimate is
    8.5LB preload - 11LB buffer bottom out

    Red springco in carbine tube after about 5k round
    8.31LB preload - 11.22LB buffer bottom out

    Original carbine spring in carbine tube
    6.3LB preload - 11LB buffer bottom out

    This information would not be only useful for me but others looking into getting springco green to replace their rifle spring or red springco to replace their original carbine spring or even other spring that somebody may post data for.

    Other data for springco colors such as blue, white, etc. Is of course welcomed too. Other data for spring such as some flatwire springs or other high quality buffer spring will also be highly appreciated by rest of forum and me.
    Not trying to mock you, but could you please explain to me what the data means and how is it used? How do I convert the data to a practical use?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomMcC View Post
    Not trying to mock you, but could you please explain to me what the data means and how is it used? How do I convert the data to a practical use?
    I converted the data to practical use by switching to a Sprinco Green, because I could see that it had more pressure at full compression AND pre-load, and I rightly presumed it would eliminate the failures to chamber that I was having with mil-spec springs. I was correct. Also, it shifted my ejection pattern rearward about 1 hour on the clock-face, which indicates to me that the BCG velocity rear-ward is reduced. This is not always something you can determine by measuring cyclic rate, because increased spring tension on the AR's action spring will actually INCREASE rpm in full auto.
    Last edited by WS6; 11-18-16 at 11:47.

  4. #44
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    Hey Smug, take a look at what this guy is doing and his approach to testing. It might be helpful to you when with your data collection / reporting. Good luck.

    http://www.scienceofthegun.com/?page_id=30#
    “I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
    Thomas Jefferson

  5. #45
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    Glad to see thread have took a turn in good direction. What a breath of fresh air.

    Thank to good idea from mod militarymoron I called springco, tubbs, and vltor to get the data we seek. I do not quote what they say but the basic point they convey remain accurate.

    Springco said "That's proprietary information, we don't give out that kind of information. We don't want our competitor to have this information but I can appreciate nature of inquiry. Owner of M4Carbine.net may have the data."

    Vltor said "I don't have the data and I can't transfer you or get you our engineer they are tied up in project. But I can gather the data and contact you on later date." They also asked me when will I publish the chart, I replied when I have all the data which might be by end of this month.

    Tubbs said "Oh sure! We only have data on hand for standard carbine tube not rifle or a5 but all spring will fit and work in any ar15 tube due to character of flat wire." They then proceed recite data they have to me.

    New data from Tubbs (only for carbine tube)

    Standard ar15 flatwire
    11.1LB preload - 15LB buffer bottom out

    Lightweight ar- 15 flatwire
    7.5LB preload - 14.2LB buffer bottom out

    Ar- 10 flatwire
    12.7LB preload- 16LB buffer bottom out.

    After all or sufficient large majority of data is acquired I will make easier to read image based chart which might only be revisited to fill in last few data.

    I will return to answer some questions I saw later, for now I got to go.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomMcC View Post
    Not trying to mock you, but could you please explain to me what the data means and how is it used? How do I convert the data to a practical use?
    Another way of looking at it is knowing what you have, as far as a spring goes. Same as knowing what a barrel is - length, material, twist rate, port size, type of rifling etc etc. The spring, being an important part of the rifle's operating system can be a solution to a problem, or could be the problem itself. By looking at the symptoms of an issue (say, short stroking for example), you can narrow the possible causes down to a few factors. Having as much information about each factor as possible helps when figuring out the possible solution.

    Say you have an issue with your rifle and you suspect that the spring could be the issue. You can measure your own spring and compare it to what WS6 posted, and possibly pinpoint or eliminate it as the cause. Having numbers helps people communicate with known quantities, rather than more nebulous qualities like 'green spring' or 'red spring'.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmugPePe View Post
    Glad to see thread have took a turn in good direction. What a breath of fresh air.

    Thank to good idea from mod militarymoron I called springco, tubbs, and vltor to get the data we seek. I do not quote what they say but the basic point they convey remain accurate.

    Springco said "That's proprietary information, we don't give out that kind of information. We don't want our competitor to have this information but I can appreciate nature of inquiry. Owner of M4Carbine.net may have the data."

    Vltor said "I don't have the data and I can't transfer you or get you our engineer they are tied up in project. But I can gather the data and contact you on later date." They also asked me when will I publish the chart, I replied when I have all the data which might be by end of this month.

    Tubbs said "Oh sure! We only have data on hand for standard carbine tube not rifle or a5 but all spring will fit and work in any ar15 tube due to character of flat wire." They then proceed recite data they have to me.

    New data from Tubbs (only for carbine tube)

    Standard ar15 flatwire
    11.1LB preload - 15LB buffer bottom out

    Lightweight ar- 15 flatwire
    7.5LB preload - 14.2LB buffer bottom out

    Ar- 10 flatwire
    12.7LB preload- 16LB buffer bottom out.

    After all or sufficient large majority of data is acquired I will make easier to read image based chart which might only be revisited to fill in last few data.

    I will return to answer some questions I saw later, for now I got to go.
    Literally just tested a Tubb 17-7SS dry-film Standard strength flat-wire. 8# and 8oz in a carbine RE, for preload, and 12# and 12.8oz fully bottomed out.

    As a control, a USGI Colt spring I have measured right at 6.0# pre-load, and 12# 3.2oz fully compressed.

    Needless to say, I am now obviously rather skeptical of Tubb's data, considering that my measuring methods seem to be falling dead-on spec wise with mil-spec.

    Also in my testing, the TUBB product and USGI product produced the most erratic BCG velocities , as based on ejection pattern consistency.

    TUBB/Carbine RE/H2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk6KshcVD4Q

    Sprinco Blue/ Carbine RE/ H2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOddT0Ak6UA

    Mil-Spec/Carbine RE/H2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsgG9-AKpE
    Last edited by WS6; 11-18-16 at 17:29.

  8. #48
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    Thank you for the link, I watched it and right off bat I see rather big differen between my data and his. I doubt mine is perfectly accurate but I also doubt his are either. I jotted down the data from video.

    Again this link is greatly appreciated! While my research across the internet, I consider myself very good researcher but I alway looked for text based statement and data forgetting about possibility to watch bunch of videos to find data even then I wouldn't want to use that much of bandwidth and time.

  9. #49
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    Just the data I was looking for.

    "Same everthing except simple switch to quality green springco spring stopped all failure and malfunction."

    That's something!

  10. #50
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    The data would be useful for many different use and reasons. Reason one, comparison between products and to find which one fit your need/ desire better. Also the references they would provide how they different from spring that you currently have. The number would aid in judgement folks would make when buying new spring or buffer system. For example do you want to increase force in feeding because you clearly feel that your rifle are barely feeding or experiencing failure to feed and you want step up in spring overall rating to improve feeding. Or you could be just after less force difference spanning over the action travel for competition use. To see difference between rifle, carbine, and a5 system clearly on paper without ambiguity especially difference between each system's difference in buffer bottom out and preload data. Also for some folks that are on fence on if the difference is worth while or not.

    Reason two. It would be a great reference to what is the standard for each spring so you know when to replace your spring or if your spring is potentially responsible for malfunction that you are experiencing.

    This data can be used to make rifle with attitude to its recoil in both direction into miracle soft shooting award winning rifle or a unreliable rifle into a rifle that shoot anything from tula to mk262 clean, dirty, suppressed or unsuppressed.

    Spring is other half to weight of buffer. Why work with only half of a concrete knowledge?

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