Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 58

Thread: So what does Mil-Spec mean???

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,631
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)

    So what does Mil-Spec mean???

    I have been reading a lot of other gun forums as of late and I am constantly seeing people mis-understand what mil-spec or mil-standard means and why it is good and or bad.

    To some manufacturers the term "mil-spec" means crappy parts that are poorly assembled. This is not accurate.

    To break it down as simply as possible, think of the Military Standard as the BASE LINE for how a FIGHTING WEAPON is to be built. What does "base line" mean? Well it means that it is the LOWEST quality that is ACCEPTABLE (per the US Govt) to how a weapon can be made. If you go above the "base line" you are doing well, but to go below that mark is a HUGE no no.

    The next question we see is "why do I care about mil-spec on my varmint gun?" The answer is that we do not. A varmint gun really has a different agenda from a fighting gun and you really do not need to be all the concerned if it doesn't stack up well against the Technical Data Package (TDP).

    What is most amusing to me is when manufacturers charge you a lot of money, claim that their weapons are for "serious use", but yet don't meet the MINIMUM .Gov standards that the TDP lays out.

    So let us assume for a moment that you want to buy a fighting weapon (that you will depend your life on). What are some of the things you should look for that will help to ensure reliability and quality? Here is the short list:

    Barrel Steel: 4150ORD, 4150SUL or CMV
    Bolt Steel: 154 Carpenter
    High pressure testing: Both bolt and barrel
    Magnetic Particle Inspection: Both bolt and barrel
    Barrel Extension: M4
    Upper Receiver: M4
    Gas key: Properly Staked
    Castle Nut: Properly Staked
    Receiver Extension: Mil-Spec 7071 impact extrusion
    Buffer: H, H2 or H3 (depending on barrel length and type of gas system)
    Gas port size for a Carbine: .063
    FSB: Rated for flat top (F stamped)
    Chrome Lining: Yes
    Twist rate: 1/7 (handles everything from 55gr to 80gr well)
    Chamber: 556 NATO




    C4

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    893
    Feedback Score
    0
    according to the TDP is HPI done in batch testing, or individual testing of each and every bolt & barrel?

    thanks
    TUEBOR

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,631
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Parabellum9x19mm View Post
    according to the TDP is HPI done in batch testing, or individual testing of each and every bolt & barrel?

    thanks
    Currently, I am told that each and every bolt/barrel needs to be HP and MP'd.



    C4

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,175
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    The next question we see is "why do I care about mil-spec on my varmint gun?" The answer is that we do not. A varmint gun really has a different agenda from a fighting gun and you really do not need to be all the concerned if it doesn't stack up well against the Technical Data Package (TDP).
    Grant,
    I gotta play devil's advocate here and say that those varmint guns are going to be doing way more killing than my "fighting guns" ever will.

    For the training/paper puncher guys I think a varmint quality build would be more appropriate. The only thing they have to worry about is embarrassment in front of the class when their gun jams.

    The varmint guys and gamers are the ones who really don't use "fighting guns" at all, and usually use specialized weapons. Ironically it is these people who would benefit most from a reliable weapon. (i.e higher scores, more kills)

    Just thought that was a little something to think about...
    Aimpoint M4S- Because your next Aimpoint battery hasn't been made yet.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,631
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by BushmasterFanBoy View Post
    Grant,
    I gotta play devil's advocate here and say that those varmint guns are going to be doing way more killing than my "fighting guns" ever will.
    Ground hogs don't shoot back. So if your varmint gun fails, it matters not. Remember that you train for the worst and hope for the best. You build the best quality AR you can and hope you NEVER have to pull the trigger.

    For the training/paper puncher guys I think a varmint quality build would be more appropriate. The only thing they have to worry about is embarrassment in front of the class when their gun jams.
    People that attend training put a lot of rounds through their weapons in a rough manner. A "varmint" grade AR will not last. Spend $700 for a class and another $400-$600 in ammo + food + lodging and let me know if you want your AR to go down or malfunction a lot.

    The varmint guys and gamers are the ones who really don't use "fighting guns" at all, and usually use specialized weapons. Ironically it is these people who would benefit most from a reliable weapon. (i.e higher scores, more kills)

    Just thought that was a little something to think about...
    Serious 3 gunners that compete use quality components as they do not want their guns to go down as they will lose the match.


    C4

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    1,857
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Here is the short list:

    Barrel Steel: 4150ORD, 4150SUL or CMV
    Bolt Steel: 154 Carpenter
    High pressure testing: Both bolt and barrel
    Magnetic Particle Inspection: Both bolt and barrel
    Barrel Extension: M4
    Upper Receiver: M4
    Gas key: Properly Staked
    Castle Nut: Properly Staked
    Receiver Extension: Mil-Spec 7071 impact extrusion
    Buffer: H, H2 or H3 (depending on barrel length and type of gas system)
    Gas port size for a Carbine: .063
    FSB: Rated for flat top (F stamped)
    Chrome Lining: Yes
    Twist rate: 1/7 (handles everything from 55gr to 80gr well)
    Chamber: 556 NATO

    C4
    There's a whole history of where BM, RRA, etc. fall short on several items on this list, but where do they fall WRT gas port diameters? Are they spec? If not, how much over or under?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,631
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by jmart View Post
    There's a whole history of where BM, RRA, etc. fall short on several items on this list, but where do they fall WRT gas port diameters? Are they spec? If not, how much over or under?

    Not even close. They all use LARGE gas ports (.068-.073). Reason? Because they expect their customers to use the cheapest (read under pressured) ammo they can find and they don't want to get complaints about their AR's not cycling. The issue is that when their customers DO use Mil-Spec pressured ammo, they are beating the guns to death (breaking bolts, bolt override, hard recoil, etc).


    C4

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    MN, USA
    Posts
    382
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Not even close. They all use LARGE gas ports (.068-.073). Reason? Because they expect their customers to use the cheapest (read under pressured) ammo they can find and they don't want to get complaints about their AR's not cycling. The issue is that when their customers DO use Mil-Spec pressured ammo, they are beating the guns to death (breaking bolts, bolt override, hard recoil, etc).


    C4
    So Grant, what companies do you find stick closest to the TDP? I'm assuming Colt and BCM are at the top? How far off are other big names such as Noveske?

    Good write-up. TOS has a thread similiar to this lately, and it made me want to gouge my eyes out. Or at least pour salt on them.
    Best Regards,
    28_days

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,631
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 28_days View Post
    So Grant, what companies do you find stick closest to the TDP? I'm assuming Colt and BCM are at the top? How far off are other big names such as Noveske?

    Good write-up. TOS has a thread similiar to this lately, and it made me want to gouge my eyes out. Or at least pour salt on them.

    Read Rob's chart. It clearly shows who follows the TDP the closest (for complete weapons). If we are going to look at just uppers, LMT and BCM are tied for position one (IMHO).


    C4

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,036
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Read Rob's chart. It clearly shows who follows the TDP the closest (for complete weapons). If we are going to look at just uppers, LMT and BCM are tied for position one (IMHO).


    C4
    LMT and BCM... That can't be right! They are too fairly priced!

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •