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Thread: Annoying!!!

  1. #31
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    This is a case of interpretation.I have spoken with,worked with, and trained with ATF agents at length.The men that come to your house to take your guns and you away when you violate the law,interpret that differently than you.If you are taking a LMT lower and placing a 10.5" LMT upper on it,you aren't manufacturing anything. You simply assembled it;LMT manufactured it.Their information is already on the gun. If you assemble the upper and lower from parts,then you built it and you may need to engrave it.Remember,it is a violation of federal law to manufacture a firearm without a manufacturers license.Noveske,for example, is a manufacturer.Another company makes the lowers and stamps Noveske on it.Noveske actually manufactures the rifle.
    I have always subscribed to the montra:"Better safe than sorry".Do what makes you feel safe.
    I would advise anyone with NFA weapons to speak with a local ATF field agent and ask him or her to explain the laws regarding the weapons you possess or intend to possess.The field agents are the ones who decide if you are in violation of the law.Understand that every agent will see things a little differently.

  2. #32
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    adh,
    Be very specific;include manufacturer,model #,serial #,and brief description.Example:Rock River Arms LAR-15 with 10.5" barrel/Serial # 123456.You can include as much as you like, but at least include the info in the example.

  3. #33
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    thanks.....Not sure what I'm gonna do about the additional engraving at this point. I already had it engraved (after knowing that the lower was good to go) with my name, city and state, before deciding on the Trust Route. Really now, I'm unsure if I would need to engrave the additional "revocable living trust of 'my name'". Obviously the trust is a legal entity for which a finger print cannot be obtained nor a picture be taken of. In that vein, it would also be impossible for the trust to manufacture the SBR.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by adh View Post
    thanks.....Not sure what I'm gonna do about the additional engraving at this point. I already had it engraved (after knowing that the lower was good to go) with my name, city and state, before deciding on the Trust Route. Really now, I'm unsure if I would need to engrave the additional "revocable living trust of 'my name'". Obviously the trust is a legal entity for which a finger print cannot be obtained nor a picture be taken of. In that vein, it would also be impossible for the trust to manufacture the SBR.
    Just add "trust" behind your name that is already engraved. And actually the trust can definitely make an SBR by filing a form-1.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigthunder223 View Post
    This is a case of interpretation.I have spoken with,worked with, and trained with ATF agents at length.The men that come to your house to take your guns and you away when you violate the law,interpret that differently than you.If you are taking a LMT lower and placing a 10.5" LMT upper on it,you aren't manufacturing anything. You simply assembled it;LMT manufactured it.Their information is already on the gun. If you assemble the upper and lower from parts,then you built it and you may need to engrave it.Remember,it is a violation of federal law to manufacture a firearm without a manufacturers license.Noveske,for example, is a manufacturer.Another company makes the lowers and stamps Noveske on it.Noveske actually manufactures the rifle.
    I have always subscribed to the montra:"Better safe than sorry".Do what makes you feel safe.
    I would advise anyone with NFA weapons to speak with a local ATF field agent and ask him or her to explain the laws regarding the weapons you possess or intend to possess.The field agents are the ones who decide if you are in violation of the law.Understand that every agent will see things a little differently.

    Yes, I know I'm not manufacturing anything, as I'm not licensed. I'm making something, which requires the same markings.

    Notice how Subparagraph (a) has the words "manufacturer" and "maker" listed separately? Those are NOT redundant terms. Noveske is a manufacturer of NFA firearms. An individual filing a Form 1 is a maker of NFA firearms. Both accomplish the same goal and both require the same markings.

    The definition of "Maker" I posted is out of the same section of the Federal regulations. Note how it says "(other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part)" right in the definition? "Makers" and "manufacturers" are two different terms for people doing the same thing, the only difference being if one is licensed to do it or not.

    It isn't a question of "interpretation" at all; the Federal regulations are crystal clear on the subject. Again, Google that section of the CFR and read it for yourself. Keep in mind that Title I and Title II firearms have completely separate sections in the CFR. Meaning that turning your 16" LMT Carbine into a 12.5" LMT Carbine is, legally speaking, creating a new weapon.

    Nor would I take the word of a field agent on the subject. They're about as reliable as taking legal advice from cops. More importantly, how much legal weight do you think the verbal assurance of a Field Agent is going to carry in court? Specifically when he's no longer willing to testify to that effect? Think he'll put it in writing for you? Or how about when he transfers to a new office and Agent Johnny GungHo is looking to make his bones and get a few firearm busts under his belt? Think his verbal assurances are going to buy you a bucket of warm spit at that point? At best, Agent GungHo will just confiscate your NFA weapon as contraband and tell you to be greatful you're not facing felony charges. So you beat the prison rap, but now you're out $1000+ for your SBR. Me? I'm not willing to risk my $2,000 SBR (or my virgin ass) on an opinion of a Field Agent that is contrary to a plain English reading of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    Oh yeah, last but not least, a Trust can most definitely make an SBR. In terms of NFA law, an "individual" is defined as a person, trust, or other business entity (Corp, LLC, etc.).

  6. #36
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    mtk,
    They make medication for what ales you.
    You may not trust an ATF field agent or believe he has a firm grasp of NFA laws,but he is the one making the decisions on the scene.He is also the one who will arrest you and take your weapons.
    "You might can beat the charge,but you can't beat the ride!"
    To make you fell better,I will include the following disclaimer with all of my posts:
    "Follow advice at own risk, 'cause I don't know shit!"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigthunder223 View Post
    mtk,
    They make medication for what ales you.
    You may not trust an ATF field agent or believe he has a firm grasp of NFA laws,but he is the one making the decisions on the scene.He is also the one who will arrest you and take your weapons.
    "You might can beat the charge,but you can't beat the ride!"
    To make you fell better,I will include the following disclaimer with all of my posts:
    "Follow advice at own risk, 'cause I don't know shit!"

    So I need medicated because I can read a plain English statute?

    Tell you what, you find justification for your opinion in the Code of Federal Regulations and I'll head on down for a prescription of meds. The law is worded quite clearly, with all the terms used in it being well-defined, leaving no abiguity whatsoever as to its content. Most Federal laws are like that. The terms "maker" and "manufacturer" are clearly defined in the CFR. The Form 1 says "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" across the top. In the instructions it even notes that SOT manufacturers are exempt from this requirement and can use a Form 2. The CFR on marking requirements clearly states both makers and manufacturers are required to add these markings. Saying "engravings aren't required" doesn't pass even a simple reading of the statutes.

    I'll also note that you didn't address one fact I posted, but rather just resorted to ad-hominum attacks. I can back up my opinion with the Code of Federal Regulations. You back yours up with petty insults and claims that Field Agents told you so (as if that actually carried some weight). Which one of us is slinging a bullshit opinion back up by nothing but heresay?

    You're also free to listen to the local Field Agent's opinion. But you're also wrong that he's the one who decides to press charges or not. That is left up to the Federal Prosecutor. Want to bet that he can read English as well as me? And even if you're right, what your local agent told you doesn't mean jack to 99% of the rest of the country. Nor is there any guarantee that they're well-versed in NFA laws. Lots of LEO's don't know their ass from a hole in the mud when it comes to the law. As but one example, here in PA, lots of local cops think open carry is illegal; that doesn't make it so, it only makes them ignorant of the law. As for ATF Field Agents, I'd expect them to be much more experienced with Title I firearms laws since that is 99% of their job. The entire NFA industry is just a minor blip when compared to the "regular" firearms industry. Hell, how many cops think NFA items are completely illegal? Quite a few in my experience. So I stand by my statement that the opinion of a few Field Agents doesn't mean a damn thing.

    And yes, I've seen the letters from the Firearms Tech Branch floating around on the internet saying you don't need engraving. I've also seen follow-up letters from ATF saying they were wrong on the first one. I've also seen a letter saying that engravings on the lower receiver weren't required (which is true; they can be on the upper or barrel if you so choose, as stated in the CFR I quoted) being misinterpreted to mean that they weren't required at all. Either way, I also know that letters not addressed to you are not admissable in court.

    You're free to follow your own advice at your own risk. But advocating that others follow it is hardly giving out useful advice. Frankly, I don't care if you end up in prison or out your NFA weapon as a result of it. I'm a firm believer in letting people reap the rewards of their actions. However, I'm more concerned about the innocent newbie who might get screwed by following your bad advice. The biggest problem with NFA firearms is that a lot of ATF's current positions are not written down anywhere or actually codified in the CFR, which makes staying in compliance difficult for a newbie. That isn't the case here. These regulations are actually in the CFR and only require a bit of reading to learn.

    Like I said, quote the CFR's and prove me wrong. It took me less than five minutes to find the parts I quoted online and I even provided you a government link to start. Quote the CFR's to back up what you claimed. I know I can do it to back up my position, leaving no abiguity at all. Can you?

    Sorry if I'm belaboring this point, but this kind of stuff is important. ATF's prosection record shows that they're very much in favor or going after the person who mistakenly stepped outside the regulations and not the person actually up to nefarious activities. Why risk your life arresting the MS-13 member, armed with his illegal full-auto AK-47, when you can arrest the citizen, who has never committed a violent act in his life, over his minor paperwork violation. Only one of those two is likely to shoot back.

  8. #38
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    Just to Mod my own thread here. I understand both sides. And will proceed with the additional engraving because it's not that big a deal to me seeing that I already had it engraved when planning to go the non-trust route. But this thread is not the appropriate place to hash out this argument. Valid points have been made on both sides...but let's keep it civil. I don't think anything was meant as a personal attack but more of a joke. My/your/our freedom is a serious subject and yes in some respects ATF has had some qestionable incidents. My mind is made up on what I'm going to do and this thread has been a lot of help. Let's leave it at that if we may.

    Thanks again for everyone's input.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshNC View Post
    Just add "trust" behind your name that is already engraved. And actually the trust can definitely make an SBR by filing a form-1.
    I would have the engravings MATCH what you put on the Form 1 as "additional markings" that will appear on the weapon.

    I believe it is Line 4h. That is what you are telling the gubment that is on your receiver. If you already have the markings on the lower.... either buy a new lower or put what those markings are on line 4h.

    I left 4h blank.

    The bottom line is, I would err on the side of having the PAPERS match The GUN!!
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by demigod View Post
    I would have the engravings MATCH what you put on the Form 1 as "additional markings" that will appear on the weapon.

    I believe it is Line 4h. That is what you are telling the gubment that is on your receiver. If you already have the markings on the lower.... either buy a new lower or put what those markings are on line 4h.

    I left 4h blank.

    The bottom line is, I would err on the side of having the PAPERS match The GUN!!
    Good point there. I'd like to get opinions from ya'll (yeah I'm from Texas) on whether or not the additional engravig would be necessary. Right now the lower is engraved with my name, city, and state. If I complete the form 1s in section 4h with that info, and the form 1 gets approved, and a copy of my trust has been submitted with the form 1, wouldn't that be a de facto approval of the method and markings?

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