On loose carrier key screws

[Ned Christiansen]

Dutch 110, you said:
The added cost has to be in the cents per BCG.

To some manufacturers, those cents are more important than, well, anything. And if they're buying their carrier key screws on Amazon and having them shipped direct from China / Taiwan / Poland, they are are absolutely doing so to save actual cents per BCG. Rather than buy from any of the several American brands, they are buying offshore brands to save.... cents.

I've had the discussion with one manufacturer (don't remember who and would not name them if I did) about those cents and the guy I spoke to was very adamant that, "Well, $.17 per gun, that's $17.00 every hundred guns! In ten thousand guns, that's $1700!! Why would I do that?"

You know, at times like that you want to say something like, "why not just stick them on with maple syrup, then"...... well, not real maple of course, that's pretty expensive.

[Disciple]

And if they're buying their carrier key screws on Amazon and having them shipped direct from China / Taiwan / Poland, they are are absolutely doing so to save actual cents per BCG.

Poland?

[556Cliff]

Dutch 110, you said:
The added cost has to be in the cents per BCG.

To some manufacturers, those cents are more important than, well, anything. And if they're buying their carrier key screws on Amazon and having them shipped direct from China / Taiwan / Poland, they are are absolutely doing so to save actual cents per BCG. Rather than buy from any of the several American brands, they are buying offshore brands to save.... cents.

I've had the discussion with one manufacturer (don't remember who and would not name them if I did) about those cents and the guy I spoke to was very adamant that, "Well, $.17 per gun, that's $17.00 every hundred guns! In ten thousand guns, that's $1700!! Why would I do that?"

You know, at times like that you want to say something like, "why not just stick them on with maple syrup, then"...... well, not real maple of course, that's pretty expensive.

Wow, reminds me of some people I know... Like my Dad, he'd literally use sheetrock screws to build a deck (and has in the past) all to save a few cents on buying the correct decking screws. Granted he was broke and trying to save the money to take care of three kids (me and my brothers) at the time, but then why not just skip building the deck all together if you can't afford to do it right? We don't usually work together well on projects.

[Dutch110]

Dutch 110, you said:
The added cost has to be in the cents per BCG.

To some manufacturers, those cents are more important than, well, anything. And if they're buying their carrier key screws on Amazon and having them shipped direct from China / Taiwan / Poland, they are are absolutely doing so to save actual cents per BCG. Rather than buy from any of the several American brands, they are buying offshore brands to save.... cents.

I've had the discussion with one manufacturer (don't remember who and would not name them if I did) about those cents and the guy I spoke to was very adamant that, "Well, $.17 per gun, that's $17.00 every hundred guns! In ten thousand guns, that's $1700!! Why would I do that?"

You know, at times like that you want to say something like, "why not just stick them on with maple syrup, then"...... well, not real maple of course, that's pretty expensive.

Early in my career I worked in a manufacturing environment in quality control. My "thing" was Statistical Process Control. After a decade I moved into software delivery and have been here for 20 years. Oddly enough lots of parallels. One of them being that the earlier in the process you find a bug or an error the less costly it is to fix. I remember putting a presentation together for a CIO at a rather large company back in the day. We were pitching a change to our software delivery methodology which would allow us to get eyes on the code much further up stream in the process. Industry analysis at the time showed that finding a bug while the code was in Dev vs when it hit production was 50 times less expensive to fix on average. He was genuinely shocked. I thought he was kidding when he showed his surprise but he wasn't.

My point being is that people very rarely understand the true cost of quality. People like your manufacturer you mentioned front load the savings for cutting corners and never look at the back end cost they may incur in terms of rework or warranty work. And I suppose there will always be a market for guns where the consumer views cost as being more important than quality. If not the PSAs of the world wouldn't exist or thrive. Fortunately there are companies out there who pay attention to the little things that go into making a rifle not good but great. And using the right carrier key screws is one of them.

[Straight Shooter]

When I built my ultimate AR15 after years of amassing parts...I wanted a Young MN Chrome bcg, period. Waited a long time for it, finally got it. Before even taking it out of the package..I had ordered the OCKS screws for it & had my builder install & properly torq & stake them...something Mr. Young, in a phone conversation with him, was adament about NOT needing to be done.
He was rather grouchy about the subject actually. WHY manufacter something "high end" like that { I now have a different opinion, fwiw} and use KNOWN subpar parts unless to save & make money is beyond me.
The rifle doesnt have hardly any rounds on it..but whenever I do get to fire it up thats one thing I wont have to worry about.

[Dutch110]

When I built my ultimate AR15 after years of amassing parts...I wanted a Young MN Chrome bcg, period. Waited a long time for it, finally got it. Before even taking it out of the package..I had ordered the OCKS screws for it & had my builder install & properly torq & stake them...something Mr. Young, in a phone conversation with him, was adament about NOT needing to be done.
He was rather grouchy about the subject actually. WHY manufacter something "high end" like that { I now have a different opinion, fwiw} and use KNOWN subpar parts unless to save & make money is beyond me.
The rifle doesnt have hardly any rounds on it..but whenever I do get to fire it up thats one thing I wont have to worry about.

Funny. I did the exact same thing. Except back when I bought my Young N/M the OCKS didn't exist so I had to "settle" for a plain old staking job (which I hear voids the warranty.) My opinion has changed like yours. I don't think they are sub par, mind you. Just that there are better options out there for the money.

[Ned Christiansen]

Poland. Not saying they're bad screws but I know some are made there. I have not had a chance to really study any. I would bet socket head cap screws are probably made in just about any EU country you name, would not be surprised. One brand has a plant in India. Screws might be just fine, I don't know.

[Straight Shooter]

Funny. I did the exact same thing. Except back when I bought my Young N/M the OCKS didn't exist so I had to "settle" for a plain old staking job (which I hear voids the warranty.) My opinion has changed like yours. I don't think they are sub par, mind you. Just that there are better options out there for the money.

Well, I have an example of ONE...but here is my experiance:
Ordered the Young NM bcg...ordered the OCKS. Sent the bolt from the NM bcg to Criterion to headspace on my new barrel. Mike from Criterion calls me himself, which is awesome, but wait, it gets better. So he tells me "my bolt is too small to headspace..tried it on several barrels..no go". Im like damn, at the moment I didnt have the cash for a new bolt I told him, just send it back.
Mike says "I hate for you not to have a bolt thru no fault of your own..We've got a new BCM bolt never been fired we use to headspace, Ill send it to you. FREE."
I was blown away of course. Thanked him profusely. So, Ive used the BCM bolt in the NM carrier ever since.
No idea what is wrong with the Young bolt. Id love for someone like SOTAR to gauge the thing.
But..going forward, Im sticking to regular bcg's that are known quality, like BCM, Sionics, ect.

[Dutch110]

Well, I have an example of ONE...but here is my experiance:
Ordered the Young NM bcg...ordered the OCKS. Sent the bolt from the NM bcg to Criterion to headspace on my new barrel. Mike from Criterion calls me himself, which is awesome, but wait, it gets better. So he tells me "my bolt is too small to headspace..tried it on several barrels..no go". Im like damn, at the moment I didnt have the cash for a new bolt I told him, just send it back.
Mike says "I hate for you not to have a bolt thru no fault of your own..We've got a new BCM bolt never been fired we use to headspace, Ill send it to you. FREE."
I was blown away of course. Thanked him profusely. So, Ive used the BCM bolt in the NM carrier ever since.
No idea what is wrong with the Young bolt. Id love for someone like SOTAR to gauge the thing.
But..going forward, Im sticking to regular bcg's that are known quality, like BCM, Sionics, ect.

Wow. Great customer service by Criterion. I wish I could say I was surprised by your Young experience. Mine has been ok. Not great. Just ok. I have it paired with a DD CHF CL MLGS 1/7 16" barrel in a VLTOR upper that SHOULD be a shooter. Its not. Its just meh. And I have tried all kinds of different ammo over the years. I made the decision recently to rebuild that upper one piece at a time to see if I could isolate the offending component. It has just sat in the gun safe over the years while other, better performing builds got my attention. Hopefully I will learn something. My own "autopsy" so to speak.

[Useless_Eater]

Years ago during the ban years I bought a Bushmaster Commando A2 (the one with 11.5 barrel and 5.5 long flash hider). Bought if for cheap because it wouldn't run. The carrier key was not staked and had came loose. So I fixed it...