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Thread: You can shoulder arm braces. Again. (ATF arm brace reversal stuff)

  1. #41
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    Just stop f*cking asking about it and don't be an idiot.

  2. #42
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    I have a brace, it's setup to be used as a brace. I haven't shot it shouldered yet ( only shot it 2x, just finished it).

    But if I had to use it to defend myself, I could gain advantage by shouldering it and wouldn't hesitate. I'll eventually get an sbr, but the pistol is just a fun gun for now. What I'm doing and my plans are well within the stated opinions as legal.

    If you setup and use the pistol as an sbr, with the intent to use it as an sbr, it's illegal. The benefits of a stock make it worth the hastle to sbr anyways.

    All that said, the law is stupid and if they weren't trying to enforce un-quantifiable ideas in the first place, the world would be better - nfa should be eliminated.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdrolling View Post
    If you do a google search there is now a ton of articles about the new change as of last month.

    Also, just noticed this should have went into the AR Pistol area so if it need to moved it might help out better there?
    There is no definitive answer because courts have not ruled on these issues. The ATF's letters are just their opinions, they are not the law. A court very well may consider the ATF's opinions when making a decision, but it won't necessarily follow it. Until a court of law adjudicates these issues he's correct, there is no definitive answer.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackblack73 View Post
    There is no definitive answer because courts have not ruled on these issues. The ATF's letters are just their opinions, they are not the law. A court very well may consider the ATF's opinions when making a decision, but it won't necessarily follow it. Until a court of law adjudicates these issues he's correct, there is no definitive answer.
    That explains it better, thank you.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    The latest ATF letter said 'incidental' I believe.
    Correct. Here's the portion from the letter I believe you're referring to...

    To the extent that the January 2015 Open Letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational “use” of an arm-brace (in its original approved configuration) equipped firearm from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute “redesign,” such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF’s interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced.”

    Quote Originally Posted by jackblack73 View Post
    There is no definitive answer because courts have not ruled on these issues. The ATF's letters are just their opinions, they are not the law. A court very well may consider the ATF's opinions when making a decision, but it won't necessarily follow it. Until a court of law adjudicates these issues he's correct, there is no definitive answer.
    This is a solid summary/explanation. Ultimately, a court would be the only entity who could actually rule on the fate of a person shouldering a brace. Based upon that fact, if one is concerned with the repercussions of shouldering a brace (either intentionally or unintentionally) they should seek the answers to the following questions.

    How many instances can we find where an individual shouldering a brace was detained?

    From those detained, how many were arrested and/or charged?

    From those arrested or charged, how many faced a judge or jury?

    From those who faced legal proceedings, how many were successfully prosecuted?

    Of those successfully prosecuted, how many actually saw jail/prison time?

    From what I can find, the answer to the first question is that very few have even been detained for shouldering a brace. As one moves farther down that list of questions, the number of identifiable examples becomes exponentially smaller.

    This doesn't mean that there is no risk in shouldering a brace. With the few examples I could find, shouldering a brace seems to only get people in trouble if they were acting unlawfully in another regard. Kind of like a seatbelt law. Most people will not be pulled over and ticketed if not wearing a seatbelt is their only offense. Now, if they're driving recklessly, speeding, etc. then you may see the seatbelt charge tacked on.

    Keep in mind, any examples one can find likely pre-dated this latest opinion from the ATF (at a time when they were still taking the BS "redesign" position). Now that they've recanted that position, it creates even less of a climate where simply shouldering a brace, alone, can land someone in legal trouble.

    Everyone has to do their own homework and determine their personal tolerance for risk. Just my 2¢ perspective.
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  6. #46
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    Just go shoot
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Just go shoot
    Even better, just go shoot and avoid commenting on the Internet in a manner that provides evidentiary value.

  8. #48
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    The reason for me starting the thread was to get more educated on the subject, the new letter from the ATF was mentioned to me at the gun store Fri.

    I went in to buy my KAC lower to start my pistol build and the clerk asked if I was building a pistol instead of an SBR because it's now legal to shoulder fire pistols now.

    This didn't sound right to me but I said I didn't know you could and my intent was to just have the pistol until I could get an SBR tax stamp back.

    Then I got home and started reading and most articles are unclear, I figured most here would know a little more than a shop clerk.

    After my build is done I plan to go shoot and not shoulder the arm brace, but after the new letter being posted I wanted to ask what it really meant and hadn't seen any other mention of it here on the forum.
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  9. #49
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    first it was never enforceable.

    second i really dont care what the atf thinks if unenforceable.

    there are things that i do like form 4's for silencers. i cant get a can without one.

    there are things that I error on the side of caution like form1's, because in 15 years on gun forums, and shooting public ranges, i have never seen or heard of an atf agent asking for papers.

    if i am more likely to be attacked by isis, durring a hurrican in WV. i am not doing it.

    i am not swapping stupid little german/czech parts for stupid little us parts.

    if i buy a pdw with a stock that the ATF considers a brace its going to be used as a stock.

    oh and **** trip tickets to, they want them filled out go for it.
    Last edited by m4hk33; 06-04-17 at 22:56.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrodder636 View Post
    There was not a lot of attention drawn by the ATF until everybody kept asking for "opinion letters" and clarification on previous letters.

    I had a brace until my stamps came through but I suggest if you have one don't go out of your way to ask for clarification, don't post videos of "ATF said it's okay to shoulder" then intentionally shoulder for a whole shooting session.

    It has been said before, gun owners can be their own worst enemies.

    If attention is not drawn, attention will not be paid...
    I keep hearing this, but is there any proof that too many people writing letters is what got the braces unable to be shouldered?

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