1 MOA Aimpoint in future ?

[OrlandoJones]

No, it is not incorrect.

When turned up to maximum, a "2moa" Aimpoint dot will cover more than 8" of a target at 100 yards to anybody's eye. I dont care what makes that happen internally. If it covers more that 8", it's over 2 moa. Period.

More importantly, for the purposes of the OP's desire for a smaller dot, what his eye perceives is ALL that matters.

I don't know, but to avoid argument, I'll grant that some fancy optical machine might measure the dot at 2moa and somehow see all but 2moa of the target, but again, that's irrelevant. If you're a human, you can turn the brightness up for a much larger dot, and down for a much smaller one.

Well said...it's always fun to watch Gun Forum chuckleheads miss the forest for the trees in any discussion of anything.

[BadgerPeak]

Well said...it's always fun to watch Gun Forum chuckleheads miss the forest for the trees in any discussion of anything.

Thanks. In fairness, I know I'm guilty of that sometimes.

[OrlandoJones]

Thanks. In fairness, I know I'm guilty of that sometimes.

Yup, me too. It's fun though, either way.

[ScottsBad]

It is unlikely that Aimpoint will produce a 1 MOA dot. I would not go so far as to say never...but very unlikely.

If you want more precision, turn the brightness down. The dot will appear smaller (as I previously posted it's not really but it will appear so to your eye).

Full disclosure: I work for Aimpoint as a Pro Staff member.

^^ For me fast shots = moderately bright, slower precision shots = reticle dim. If you have the time, say on a bench, you can make the reticle essentially translucent (with one eye closed) so you can see your target through the dot. With a little more brightness dot still appears small, but reticle can be more quickly picked up. For me, there is a range of useful brightnesses. I like the least brightness that I can use for the task at hand. Quick two eyed shooting requires about an 8-9 on a T1 depending on the ambient light. YMMV

Do I think a 1MOA dot Micro would be useful? Depends on how its implemented. A circle dot might be useful because a 1 MOA dot would require less fiddling with the brightness since quick 50-100 yard shots can still be achieved with the outer ring (If I remember correctly from my long gone EOtech). Also, the 1MOA dot was a little more betterer with a magnifier.

The Aimpoint magnifier I have does not work well with the T1, it does work well with my T2 however. But the 2 MOA dot is still a bit larger than optimal for magnification IMHO

Don't get me wrong, I own 4 Aimpoint RDS and a magnifier (big AP fan), and NO EOTechs, but there may be some advantage to the idea of a circle with 1 MOA dot even if it reduced battery life by half.

JMHO

[ScottsBad]

This is incorrect. The dot does not in fact change size, it's a question of how your eye perceives the dot.

^^^You are correct, and it has to be stated that way because each person will see a different sized dot at different brightnesses. To say that the dot is larger as the brightness is turned up is just plain incorrect. I would call it lazy thinking. I believe you also pointed out that the reticle size is perceived not actual, which again, is the correct way to describe it.

Well said...it's always fun to watch Gun Forum chuckleheads miss the forest for the trees in any discussion of anything.

I'm pretty sure I know who the actual "chuckleheads" are OrlandoJones and BadgerPeak.

[BadgerPeak]

Bad and Joe,

You have stated that the dot growing is "incorrect ". Outside of corporate advertising literature, can you back that up?

I'm happy to provide a brief primer on what MOA means, and provide evidence that (at higher levels) the dot covers far more than 2.

It's 2017. Saying I'm wrong because a company advertisement says so doesn't cut it.

Unless you all are poking your fingers inside your Aimpoints and feeling the dot, it only exists in your vision. How much of your field of view it covers IS how big it is. I can post pictures of my dot on a yard stick and make you look stupid if needed, because my digital camera happens to agree with my natural eye.

I was an Aimpoint dealer for a while, I've used them on duty, and I'm holding one now, gently whispering, "my precious".

They are still great optics even if you don't treat their marketing literature as inspired and inerrant.

[Kain]

All this talk about the size of the dot as perceived when brightness is cranked up is asinine.

Here are some thoughts to consider to everyone wanting to claim that the dot gets bigger and that it is not just how the eye perceives the dot when brightness is increased.

If the dot when brightness is turned up appears to grow, does it remain the same size in all lighting conditions. If the answer is no, then is didn't grow, you perceived it to do so, because of what is going to be basically an optical allusion, dot putting out more light, more light means more for the eye to pick up, ect. This does not mean that the dot has changed, it means that the way your mind perceives it has changed. I have a mild astigmatism when I don't wear corrective lenses. Looking through my Aimpoint indoors I have a dot in the middle of a starburst effectively. Yet, if I flip up my BUIS and look through the small aperture it appears considerably smaller and more defined. Did the dot change between me looking at it normally and looking through the rear aperture? No. The way my eye perceived it did. Same as when I have my aimpoint indoors, the dot my eye sees without corrective lenses differs from the dot my eye perceives in sunlight without corrective lenses. Again, the dot itself is not changing, what I am perceiving is changing as well as environmental conditions. In short, the dot very well may be exactly what is is advertised to be, however, what the end user's eyes, and not everyone's eyes are the same, may differ.

And for everyone going that perception is reality, sorry no. Just because you perceive an object to be three feet away when it is 6 feet away does not make it so.


Now can be please go back to discussing whether a 1MOA aimpoint is ever going to happen, and more importantly, whether it would have any actual merits, because I am looking at things going, not sure it would be any more useful, practically speaking over a 2MOA for the engagement ranges that most people are going to be using them for.

[ScottsBad]

All this talk about the size of the dot as perceived when brightness is cranked up is asinine.

Here are some thoughts to consider to everyone wanting to claim that the dot gets bigger and that it is not just how the eye perceives the dot when brightness is increased.

If the dot when brightness is turned up appears to grow, does it remain the same size in all lighting conditions. If the answer is no, then is didn't grow, you perceived it to do so, because of what is going to be basically an optical allusion, dot putting out more light, more light means more for the eye to pick up, ect. This does not mean that the dot has changed, it means that the way your mind perceives it has changed. I have a mild astigmatism when I don't wear corrective lenses. Looking through my Aimpoint indoors I have a dot in the middle of a starburst effectively. Yet, if I flip up my BUIS and look through the small aperture it appears considerably smaller and more defined. Did the dot change between me looking at it normally and looking through the rear aperture? No. The way my eye perceived it did. Same as when I have my aimpoint indoors, the dot my eye sees without corrective lenses differs from the dot my eye perceives in sunlight without corrective lenses. Again, the dot itself is not changing, what I am perceiving is changing as well as environmental conditions. In short, the dot very well may be exactly what is is advertised to be, however, what the end user's eyes, and not everyone's eyes are the same, may differ.

And for everyone going that perception is reality, sorry no. Just because you perceive an object to be three feet away when it is 6 feet away does not make it so.


Now can be please go back to discussing whether a 1MOA aimpoint is ever going to happen, and more importantly, whether it would have any actual merits, because I am looking at things going, not sure it would be any more useful, practically speaking over a 2MOA for the engagement ranges that most people are going to be using them for.

^^^ Correct.

Here is my opinion about a 1 MOA dot as previously stated in post #24.

"Do I think a 1MOA dot Micro would be useful? Depends on how its implemented. A circle dot might be useful because a 1 MOA dot would require less fiddling with the brightness since quick 50-100 yard shots can still be achieved with the outer ring. Also, the 1MOA dot was a little more betterer with a magnifier.

The Aimpoint magnifier I have does not work well with the T1, it does work well with my T2 however. But the 2 MOA dot is still a bit larger than optimal for magnification IMHO

Don't get me wrong, I own 4 Aimpoint RDS and a magnifier (big AP fan), and NO EOTechs, but there may be some advantage to the idea of a circle with 1 MOA dot even if it reduced battery life by half."

[BadgerPeak]

All this talk about the size of the dot as perceived when brightness is cranked up is asinine.
.

Yes, it is asinine.

IMG_1885.jpg

That's a 6 inch dot from a "2moa" Aimpoint at 19 yards. Not to my eye. Not to your eye. To an electronic device, which, by the way, doesn't have astigmatism. It also happens to look the same size to my eyes... and two other friends eyes.

Now if you're really astute with mathematics, that's awfully close to a 30 MOA dot.

Yes, the argument is asinine. It is over. The dot is not fixed at 2 MOA.

Again, Aimpoint can release a 1 MOA dot or not. Regardless of what the OP buys, he's going to be playing with the brightness setting to get the size of the dot where he wants it.

[Kain]

Yes, it is asinine.

IMG_1885.jpg

That's a 6 inch dot from a "2moa" Aimpoint at 19 yards. Not to my eye. Not to your eye. To an electronic device, which, by the way, doesn't have astigmatism. It also happens to look the same size to my eyes... and two other friends eyes.

Now if you're really astute with mathematics, that's awfully close to a 30 MOA dot.

Yes, the argument is asinine. It is over. The dot is not fixed at 2 MOA.

Again, Aimpoint can release a 1 MOA dot or not. Regardless of what the OP buys, he's going to be playing with the brightness setting to get the size of the dot where he wants it.

And once again, asinine, and in your case selective reading. Is it that same size dot under all lighting conditions at that brightness? You crank the brightness up it emits more illumination, both eye or device will pick that up. I don't know what disconnect you have with that, but the dot is not getting bigger, the size is being perceived is increasing due to conditions and the brightness.

Here are some shitty cell pics, but everything is same except one the weapon light is on, the other it is not.





It is what is perceived. Turn the optic's brightness up higher than needed for a given lighting condition will cause it to appear larger. It is not in fact larger, it simply appears that way.