S&W 1911's

[Robb Jensen]

I agree with Trio S&W is one of the companies who've figured out how to make an external extractor work.
Kimbers was a different design than S&Ws.

[ToddG]

The Smith extractor design is based on the 4506, and is the same "i-beam" configuration used in the M&P (in all calibers).

I taught a class a few years ago to a military group that had a number of S&W 1911 Performance Center guns, and they were have tons of extraction problems. My understanding is that the production (non-Performance Center) guns are actually the more reliable ones.

[forgiven]

My friend has one that he enjoys - he hasn't had extraction/jamming issues with his.

[maximus83]

Here are Hilton's more lengthy comments on the S&W extractor, posted ironically just 10 days ago over in the 1911 S&W forums. Obviously his is not the only opinion on the subject, and there are those who are very happy with their S&W 1911's. Also note that he says in this quote, he is not inherently against external extractors, in fact he supports the concept if done right. I just think anybody looking to buy one would benefit from reading his thoughts, along with your other research. He points out, pretty logically, that part of the reason a lot of new and recent buyers don't report the issues is that you don't see them much in guns with low round counts. Again that doesn't mean they're bad or that someone shouldn't buy one, but just be aware of it when you buy. In summary, his position is that "the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent."

"The S&W 1911 is a good value for the money, but some samples of the guns exhibit tolerance stacking which leaves the extractor sitting too high in relation to the cartridge rim. This causes the cartridge rim to get pulled off the extractor hook during barrel linkdown. The extractor loses grip on the casing, resulting in issues with extraction and ejection - commonly seen as erratic ejection patterns or stovepipes. The problem is not apparent in new guns or guns with relatively low round counts (less than 5000 rounds), which is why most shooters tend to do ok with the guns. Further, most shooters do not realize that the gun is borderline in functioning if the empty cases are ejecting from the gun - albeit in a haphazard pattern, to include straight up, to the left, over their head, or straight out in front of the gun. A gun that exhibits such flawed ejection patterns is not "flawless" or "working just fine", and is typically waiting to spring bigger problems on its user. A new extractor doesn't typically cure the issue, as the accumulated wear compounds the tolerance stacking problem.

The fact that there is a different Performance Center extractor should be an important indicator that there is a better solution. Further, it is important to note that I am not condemning all external extractors. If you have read my articles, I am a big proponent of the concept. However, the point here is that the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent.

If you already have the gun running and it is working for you at this time, then drive on. Just keep a critical eye on the gun and understand what you are observing.

If anyone has questions about things that I write about, I would encourage them to contact me directly to get a straight and correct answer. My writings are based on gathered empirical data and firsthand experience, and I am cautious always to post on matters that I have researched thoroughly."

[vaspence]

I haven't had any issues with either the stainless performance center one I had or the blued current production model I now own. When I bought the second one (used) it's the only 1911 I considered. It is priced fairly and runs great out of the box. I have treated it like a Glock and haven't had any issues. That said it only sees a couple of matches a year and a few range trips maybe 600-700 rounds a year. However, I have had it for 3 years and not cleaned it other than wiping the exterior. I'm definitley not a 1911 guy but I'm happy.

[Bob]

Do S&W 1911 FPBs actuate off the trigger or off the grip safety?

[USG]

I have had four different S&W 1911s (stainless 5", PD and SC 4-1/4" and 5" PD Rail). Sold two to associates who carry them daily. Of the ones I still own, I have ~2000 rounds through the rail gun and ~500 through the SC. Had one problem which was a plunger tube which loosened up very slightly on the SC early on. S&W paid the shipping and returned it to me fixed in a week. Two other friends purchased S&W 1911s and have +1000 rounds each through them (one a PD rail and the other steel blue 5") and counting, as they compete monthly.

Neither I nor my associates have had any reliability issues; feeding, firing, extraction, ejection, etc with factory ammunition. I attended the S&W 1911 factory armorer course. The extractor design appears sound and I queried about specific issues with the pistol and there is no track record of extractor problems at all. The grip-safety-activated firing pin safety is not everyone's cup of tea, nor mine, but I have carried the pistol for self-defense with complete confidence.

The guns are universally quite accurate for most uses, as the barrel lugs and seat lockups are good. Two-inch 5-shot groups at 25 yards are typical with ammo the gun likes. They also shoot POA/POI and have a nicely beveled edges for carry. Given the price of the pistol, it's a very good choice.

Having been around the 1911 world for 30+ years, IMHO there is more than the usual amount of gun snobbery involved, since the 1911 is a gunsmith's dream. In the past few years the proclamations of self-appointed omnipotent have become even more strident. There are more 1911 manufacturers and custom semi-custom shops around than ever before, and they all desire to to have you and your money part ways in their own direction. They tend to recommend pistols that, while sound, are easier to sell their services for. This leads to a reduced objective basis.

In comparison to the JMB-designed unit, the S&W extractor is far easier to manufacture, correctly fit and service. This irks the gunsmith that makes his money performing his magic on your 1911, because there is less magic involved. Less magic equals more of your money not leaving you. Especially with the S&W 1911, the pistol is perfectly adequate right out of the box at a very attractive price, and it is made in the USA. You can't shave with it, as you can with the edges on a similarly-priced Brand S. It doesn't have a "custom match-grade" label like Brand K, but it doesn't need an expected trip back to the factory/gunsmith to be accurate and reliable either. It has a large flared integral mag well opening, so doesn't need an aftermarket gunsmith-fitted mag well like so many other brands.

There is no factory produced product anywhere that does not have a wanker escape at some point, even with the best intentions of the factory. If you want perfection you pay for it by ordering up a custom or semi-custom pistol. A couple of brand new examples of highly-rated (or perhaps shilled) semi-custom/custom 1911s I've recently examined were not perfect either. For the money I would not have been satisfied. With factory guns, over-expectant complainers tend to whine on the internet, and on the opposite end of the spectrum satisfied owners are too busy shooting and enjoying their purchase to post.

[kingc]

I have had four different S&W 1911s (stainless 5", PD and SC 4-1/4" and 5" PD Rail). Sold two to associates who carry them daily. Of the ones I still own, I have ~2000 rounds through the rail gun and ~500 through the SC. Had one problem which was a plunger tube which loosened up very slightly on the SC early on. S&W paid the shipping and returned it to me fixed in a week. Two other friends purchased S&W 1911s and have +1000 rounds each through them (one a PD rail and the other steel blue 5") and counting, as they compete monthly.

Neither I nor my associates have had any reliability issues; feeding, firing, extraction, ejection, etc with factory ammunition. I attended the S&W 1911 factory armorer course. The extractor design appears sound and I queried about specific issues with the pistol and there is no track record of extractor problems at all. The grip-safety-activated firing pin safety is not everyone's cup of tea, nor mine, but I have carried the pistol for self-defense with complete confidence.

The guns are universally quite accurate for most uses, as the barrel lugs and seat lockups are good. Two-inch 5-shot groups at 25 yards are typical with ammo the gun likes. They also shoot POA/POI and have a nicely beveled edges for carry. Given the price of the pistol, it's a very good choice.

Having been around the 1911 world for 30+ years, IMHO there is more than the usual amount of gun snobbery involved, since the 1911 is a gunsmith's dream. In the past few years the proclamations of self-appointed omnipotent have become even more strident. There are more 1911 manufacturers and custom semi-custom shops around than ever before, and they all desire to to have you and your money part ways in their own direction. They tend to recommend pistols that, while sound, are easier to sell their services for. This leads to a reduced objective basis.

In comparison to the JMB-designed unit, the S&W extractor is far easier to manufacture, correctly fit and service. This irks the gunsmith that makes his money performing his magic on your 1911, because there is less magic involved. Less magic equals more of your money not leaving you. Especially with the S&W 1911, the pistol is perfectly adequate right out of the box at a very attractive price, and it is made in the USA. You can't shave with it, as you can with the edges on a similarly-priced Brand S. It doesn't have a "custom match-grade" label like Brand K, but it doesn't need an expected trip back to the factory/gunsmith to be accurate and reliable either. It has a large flared integral mag well opening, so doesn't need an aftermarket gunsmith-fitted mag well like so many other brands.

There is no factory produced product anywhere that does not have a wanker escape at some point, even with the best intentions of the factory. If you want perfection you pay for it by ordering up a custom or semi-custom pistol. A couple of brand new examples of highly-rated (or perhaps shilled) semi-custom/custom 1911s I've recently examined were not perfect either. For the money I would not have been satisfied. With factory guns, over-expectant complainers tend to whine on the internet, and on the opposite end of the spectrum satisfied owners are too busy shooting and enjoying their purchase to post.

And, the biggest Bennie not mentioned, at about $80 a pop to send a handgun next day air, Smith and Wesson will email a prepaid shipping label each and every time a warranty claim is made, no questions asked!