22lr Trainers

[Leftie]

I've recently been bitten by the long range bug again, and hard... I have been considering finally spending the money on a .22 trainer, so this thread is pure gold for me. Definitely interested in being able to replicate a centerfire platform in .22LR and am curious, if any of you guys with experience with "full size" 22 precision guns were to go through the research and purchase exercise again knowing what you know now, where would you start? I'm of the mentality that if you're going to buy something, it's best to spend money on quality and do it right the first time.

So, any thoughts? I'm especially curious about a Compass Lake 22LR upper for the moment, as I seem to reach for my 18" AR far more often than anything else these days for distance...

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Here's the rabbit hole that I started down...

https://forum.snipershide.com/thread...-r700.6395085/

My boy got more interested in shooting ARs last year and this year and our local Praire Dog match got cancelled permanently, and getting down to Hoser's is a pain with time and distance. That all saved me from going overboard.

One thing that Hoser has at his PRS22 matches is a mover target. That is pretty neat. I haven't run the math on it yet. I know 22lr is 1/4 scale 308 in distance/measurements, but I'm not sure if it is 1:1 in time- as in do leads work the same if you scale the targets...

[Leftie]

Holy rabbit hole Batman!

What a great read, thanks for the link. Interesting how the ratios and drop truly are quite comparable to 1/4 scale. I just ran a mild comparison (not a precise one, and purely with theoretical numbers) between 22LR (Lapua 40gr.) and .308 (175gr. OTM), and the time in flight doesn't match up nearly as consistently as the drop compensation.

Screen Shot 2019-11-10 at 2.35.20 PM.jpg

I didn't run windage data, but according to the Finaccuracy article mentioned on SH, windage data is accordingly scaled https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-ne...best-out-of-it

Interesting stuff... This isn't helping to talk me out of spending entirely too much on a .22LR trainer build. Coupled with a few 1/4 sized targets, I might just find myself with a very capable solution for shooting at "long distances" in a compressed range.

Very cool.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Can you post a bigger copy? I don't seem to be able to get that big enough to read.

10 years ago the only real 22lr trainers were the ones that Moon at GAP did and they were expensive. Now less than 1k gets you in the set-up that is more than adequate. Kind of like 15 years ago if you wanted FFP tactical scopes it was S&B and one other guy, not who doesn't make a $500 FFP scope?

[Failure2Stop]

Comparing 308 175gr SMK at 2600 f/s to a .22 LR 40gr at 1070 f/s with 10 mph wind effect:

.308 at 100 yards (zero distance) 0.0 mils elevation / 0.25 mils wind = .22 LR at 50 yards (zero distance) 0.0 mils elevation / 0.7 mils wild
.308 at 200 yards: 0.6 mils elevation / 0.5 mils wind = .22 LR at 65 yards: 0.6 mils elevation / 0.9 mils wind
.308 at 300 yards: 1.4 mils elevation / 0.75 mils wind = .22 LR at 85 yards: 1.4 mils elevation / 1.2 mils wind
.308 at 370 yards: 2.0 mils elevation / 1.0 mils wind = .22 LR at 100 yards: 2.0 mils elevation / 1.4 mils wind
.308 at 590 yards: 4.6 mils elevation / 1.7 mils wind = .22 LR at 150 yards: 4.6 mils elevation / 2.0 mils wind
.308 at 780 yards: 7.4 mils elevation / 2.4 Mils wind = .22 LR at 200 yards: 7.4 mils elevation / 2.6 mils wind
.308 at 950 yards: 10.7 mils elevation / 3.2 mils wind = .22 LR at 250 yards: 10.6 mils elevation / 3.2 mils wind
.308 at 1090 yards: 14.0 mils elevation / 3.9 mils wind = .22 LR at 300 yards: 14.0 mils elevation / 3.8 mils wind

Drop and drift matches up the most between 780 yards with .308 / 200 yards with .22 through 1100 yards with .308 / 305 yards with .22 LR.

[Leftie]

For some reason I'm having trouble posting a larger copy. Here's the data which was on the picture. Keep in mind again that these are calculated with theoretical variables:

22LR Lapua X 40 gr					                 308 Black Hills 176 gr OTM	Sound Barrier	1116 FPS

Distance	        Velocity	Drop (Mils)	Time in Flight	                Distance	Velocity	Drop (Mils)	Time in Flight	Ratio - Time In Flight  
50	                998	        -0.01		        0.15	                100	        2511	        0	                0.21		 0.714285714	
60	                986	        0.32		        0.18                	150	        2425	        0.26	                0.31		 0.580645161	
					                                                200	        2340	        0.62	                0.42		 0.5	
70	                974	        0.7	                0.21			                2256	        1.02	                0.53		 0.452830189	
80	                963	        1.11	                0.24		        250	        2175	        1.45	                0.65		 0.415384615	
90	                952	        1.55	                0.27		        300	        2095	        1.92	                0.77		 0.38961039	
100	                941	        2	                0.3		        350	        2016	        2.43	                0.9		 0.366666667	
110	                931	        2.47	                0.33		        400	        1940	        2.96	                1.03		 0.359223301	
120	                922	        2.96	                0.37		        450	        1865	        3.52	                1.16		 0.344827586	
130	                912	        3.45	                0.4								
140	                903	        3.96	                0.43		        500	         1792	        4.12	                1.3		 0.330769231	
150	                894	        4.48	                0.46		        550	         1722	        4.76	                1.45		 0.317241379	
160	                886	        5.01	                0.5		        600	         1653	        5.43	                1.6		 0.3125	
170	                878	        5.56	                0.53		        650	         1587	        6.14	                1.76		 0.301136364	
180	                869	        6.11	                0.57		        700	         1524	        6.9	                1.92		 0.296875
190	                862	        6.67	                0.6		        750	         1463	        7.7	                2.09		 0.28708134
						                                                         1404	        8.56	                2.26		 0.283185841
200	                854	        7.23	                0.64		        800	         1349	        9.46	                2.44		 0.274590164
210	                846	        7.81	                0.67		        850	         1297	        10.43        	        2.62		 0.270992366
220	                839	        8.4	                0.71		        900	         1249	        11.45	                2.8		 0.264285714
230	                831	        8.99	                0.74		        950	         1204	        12.53	                2.99		 0.260869565
240	                824	        9.6	                0.78		        1000	         1164	        13.68	                3.18		 0.257861635
250	                817	        10.21	                0.82		        1050	         1128	        14.89	                3.37		 0.252225519
260	                810	        10.83	                0.85		        1100	         1095	        16.17	                3.56		 0.25
270	                804	        11.46	                0.89		        1150	         1066	        17.51	                3.75		 0.248
280	                797	        12.1	                0.93		        1200	         1040	        18.93	                3.94		 0.246192893
290	                791	        12.74	                0.97		        1250	         1017	        20.41	                4.13		 0.242130751
300	                784	        13.4	                1.0		        1300	         996	        21.97	                4.31		 0.232018561

Disregard the "HTML Code" tag - it was the only way that I could get something remotely resembling a chart to format...

Basically what we are seeing here is that there isn't a 1:1 correlation in terms of flight time (used to calculate holds for movers) BUT... you could adjust the speed of your moving targets with the above coefficients to reproduce a 1:1 hold equivalent (for instance, if you wanted to simulate a 500 yard mover for your .308 rifle with your .22 trainer while shooting at 140 yards the equivalent distance to 500 yards in .308 according to the above chart you would multiply any target speed let's say 3mph @500yd for .308 by 3 to reproduce the equivalent hold required in mils for your .22 trainer at the corresponding distance [so now you have a target moving at 9mph for your 22 which will reproduce the same hold in mils in your reticle as a target at 500 yards traveling at 3mph]).

In theory, this method would also allow you to dial for wind with your .22 trainer and the ratios would hold to reproduce the equivalent conditions with .308. That's a LOT of theory, though, and I could very well be wrong here in practice.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The issue I have is that the 22lr guns seem sensative to temp and round count past 190yards. Like get dope at 8am at 50F and b noon at 80F we are talking a MIL difference in elevation.

The other thing that I think I'm divining is that when I zero at 50, there is always a bit of wind and it moves it enough that the zero isn't right- either that of my scope and bore on the 22lr aren't planar and I'm getting a weird L-R switch as distance increases. Next time I'm going to 'zero' left and right at 15 yards so it is a true no-wind zero. Or I might just be crazy. Or really, 'and'.

[Leftie]

Temperature definitely makes a difference in every caliber, and it is easily overlooked at any given moment, until after you break the first shot when conditions either warm up or cool down.

Sounds like a good justification to go shooting in either case! I know that "checking my zero" is always a good justification for a trip to the range as, you know, those things could change if I'm not paying close attention

[Esq.]

Temperature definitely makes a difference in every caliber, and it is easily overlooked at any given moment, until after you break the first shot when conditions either warm up or cool down.

Sounds like a good justification to go shooting in either case! I know that "checking my zero" is always a good justification for a trip to the range as, you know, those things could change if I'm not paying close attention

I make do with a Ruger Precision .22 and Eley CMP bulk ammo. It will shoot sub 1/2" at 50 and 1" at 100. At 200 as long as the wind stays down it will shoot under 2.5 all day long- 10 shot groups. I'm pretty happy considering it's a $375 rifle with a Primary Arms scope shooting .07 a round ammo.....

[Failure2Stop]

I make do with a Ruger Precision .22 and Eley CMP bulk ammo. It will shoot sub 1/2" at 50 and 1" at 100. At 200 as long as the wind stays down it will shoot under 2.5 all day long- 10 shot groups. I'm pretty happy considering it's a $375 rifle with a Primary Arms scope shooting .07 a round ammo.....

Awesome that you're getting good performance with Eley CMP bulk.
My T1X definitely prefers Tenex and SK Biathlon Sport. The SK isn't too bad at $0.13 each, but half that would be great!