USSOCOM Adopts 6.5 Creedmoor

[joffe]

Last Spring, USSOCOM undertook a study of 6.5 family cartridges to determine a path forward for Precision Intermediate Caliber Ammunition. Over the last year, USASOC, the primary driver of this initiative, narrowed it down to 260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoor. Testing indicated that the two calibers performed very closely.

Last month, the command conducted a reliability test, using two incumbent weapons, currently in US service; the FN SCAR Heavy and KAC M110. Two weapons of each type were used, one was in 260 Remington and the other in 6.5 CM. What they found is that both weapons performed just as well and were just as reliable in either caliber.

As both cartridges were similarly accurate and reliable, the determining factor for selection of 6.5 CM would end up being trade space. The prevailing attitude is that there was more room with the 6.5 CM to further develop projectiles and loads.

I don’t expect a major announcement, or any fanfare with this decision. Instead, you’ll begin to see small movements toward configuring weapons to utilize this round.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23...adopts-6-5-cm/

Interesting, it will be interesting to see which exact cartridges they end up using.

[Biggy]

The following information is from a 2017 Remington magazine article I was reading at the bookstore yesterday about our armed services deciding to stick with the 7.62x51mm instead of the newer 6mm calibers. The head NC officer in charge of the special forces sniper school had done a survey of 108 school trained snipers who had seen service in Afghanistan and Iraq. The snipers were asked about engagement distances where they were employed as snipers. The average engagment distance for the 108 men across both theaters was 396 meters or 433 yards. Its likely the marines were seeing something very similar. He stated that while the newer 6 CM calibers would bring a slight external ballistic improvement to a sniper rifle, the effects would be almost neligible at those ranges. Even inside 700 yards, the differences between the 7.62x51mm and the other cartridges are not enough to warrant the headaches the smaller bores would bring in the form of a greater logistical burden and vastly decreased barrel life, etc., etc. He stated you would need a third as many rifles as there are snipers, just to keep the snipers operational. Thus the Marine Corp held on to the 7.62x51mm and now USSOCOM adopts the 6.5 CM

[gamewarden]

Probably easier for USSOCOM to handle new calibers than USMC...logistics wise? I see this as a good option in a switch barrel bolt rifle setup.

[Pappabear]

I'm with the Marines logic. It's like trying to change the 556 cartridge. Most options are not worth the headache. But it does show the popularity of the 6.5 round. I didn't know barrel life suffers with 6.5.

What is expected life of a 6.5 and or vs 308. I know our 308's have several thousand rounds and still clover leaf.
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

PB

Edit, my quick google search said 5,000 vs 2,000 to 3,000 rounds. That's significant!! I'm surprised that alone wouldn't kill across the board. Is it possible EGOS play a role in these decisions.

PB

[pointblank4445]

I'm with the Marines logic. It's like trying to change the 556 cartridge. Most options are not worth the headache. But it does show the popularity of the 6.5 round. I didn't know barrel life suffers with 6.5.

What is expected life of a 6.5 and or vs 308. I know our 308's have several thousand rounds and still clover leaf.
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

PB

Edit, my quick google search said 5,000 vs 2,000 to 3,000 rounds. That's significant!! I'm surprised that alone wouldn't kill across the board. Is it possible EGOS play a role in these decisions.

PB

I'm to understand those numbers are indicative of a certain level of velocity loss and not necessarily of accuracy degradation. So far the 6.5CM has really only walked one side of the fence (at least openly) and that's in non-mil precision rifle (mostly comp) where the standards are not identical to what would be a no-go/out of spec/deadlined combat weapon.

The way people opine here about $300 cl chf AR barrels would be absolutely horrified by how barrels are regarded in the PRS world...

ETA: It's all relative anyways...we cashed out a Dept. Rem 40x well shy of 6k mark but I'm still using a 20" AI Border barrel now on an AX that came into the country during George W. Bush's first term... I quit counting rounds at 8500 on that one.

[Pappabear]

I would think the mil would smoke the barrels with heavier long term hot shooting range sessions. But I honestly don't know jack squat about their precision practice sessions.

I have a FN SPR 308 that has a CL barrel. Im looking forward to 20,000 rounds. It shoots MOA, Im surprised the military doesn't try CL precision barrels.

[jpgm]

I'm thinking the barrel wear might not be as bad as speculated. 6.5C's less recoil and slightly less loadout weight already has an up on the 7.62.

jpgm

[montrala]

It shoots MOA, Im surprised the military doesn't try CL precision barrels.

HK G28 (issue SPR in German military) has CL (and HF) barrel. Rifle is guaranteed from factory to keep 1.5 MOA (10 shots from bipod, not from machine rest) with service ammo for at least 10,000 rounds.

IRL with match ammo this rifle is sub-MOA capable. We recently reviewed civilian MR308A3-28-20" (uses same CL HF barrel as G28, in this case 20" instead of 16.5") and we got (from used ammo) best results with Lapua Semi-Auto 170gr (best group 0.515MOA) and (surprisingly!) with GGG FMJ 147gr (0.804MOA). GGG HP 175gr and S&B HPBT Match 168gr were both close and still sub-MOA (0.917MOA and 0.873MOA respectively). Only Sako Speedhead 123gr went above MOA (1.524MOA). Testing on indoor range, at 100m, from the bench with Caldwell polymer shooting rest. My friend, who was always very skeptical about accuracy potential of semi-automatic rifles, decided to keep this rifle and bought it.

[Pappabear]

HK G28 (issue SPR in German military) has CL (and HF) barrel. Rifle is guaranteed from factory to keep 1.5 MOA (10 shots from bipod, not from machine rest) with service ammo for at least 10,000 rounds.

IRL with match ammo this rifle is sub-MOA capable. We recently reviewed civilian MR308A3-28-20" (uses same CL HF barrel as G28, in this case 20" instead of 16.5") and we got (from used ammo) best results with Lapua Semi-Auto 170gr (best group 0.515MOA) and (surprisingly!) with GGG FMJ 147gr (0.804MOA). GGG HP 175gr and S&B HPBT Match 168gr were both close and still sub-MOA (0.917MOA and 0.873MOA respectively). Only Sako Speedhead 123gr went above MOA (1.524MOA). Testing on indoor range, at 100m, from the bench with Caldwell polymer shooting rest. My friend, who was always very skeptical about accuracy potential of semi-automatic rifles, decided to keep this rifle and bought it.

Montrala, for the win. Good to know. Does the US Military use any of these weapons or other precision rifles with CL barrels. From my very limited knowledge, even with LMT and KAC and that guy in TX, they opt for SS barrels. Even though LMT's CL barrels will shoot MOA. What is the service life of KAC 308 SR25 barrel? KAC usually has done something very special that non KAC owners don't know about. I remember reading an article about KAC mags, not your average mag, not your average price. But I run them.

PB

[mgrs]

I'm with the Marines logic. It's like trying to change the 556 cartridge. Most options are not worth the headache. But it does show the popularity of the 6.5 round. I didn't know barrel life suffers with 6.5.

What is expected life of a 6.5 and or vs 308. I know our 308's have several thousand rounds and still clover leaf.
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

PB

Edit, my quick google search said 5,000 vs 2,000 to 3,000 rounds. That's significant!! I'm surprised that alone wouldn't kill across the board. Is it possible EGOS play a role in these decisions.

PB

What if we could field a precision platform that gets closer to .300 win mag effective range when used to turn humans into hors de combat- with more barrel life, lighter load, less recoil, and can be fit into much lighter semi-automatic weapon that may be as 'simple' as issuing a replacement upper receiver group for existing systems in inventory?

I would think the mil would smoke the barrels with heavier long term hot shooting range sessions. But I honestly don't know jack squat about their precision practice sessions.

I have a FN SPR 308 that has a CL barrel. Im looking forward to 20,000 rounds. It shoots MOA, Im surprised the military doesn't try CL precision barrels.

They do; the MK20 is a current, common one.