Voting: What is more important

[ZDL]

And at school. And on the street. And on TV. Education happens everywhere.

You are describing where experiences happen. Not education. Things happen to children in these areas. They then come home to have a discussion about them and find out what they should take from these encounters in these areas and what they should learn. This all happens at home. Sloughing that responsibility off onto the street, TV, school, is lazy and wrong.

HOME should be the center of education, but it is not he only place kids learn, and often enough, sadly, kids don't learn much at home with 2 parents out working, kid in day care or public schools, etc.

2 things to say here.

1. If your situation precludes you from being able to effectively raise kids then don't have kids. Having kids is a choice.

2. Both parents working and you ignored the first point? Plenty of families make it work. To say you can't is lazy and wrong. (did I say that already?)

The public education system does not need to be overhauled -- it needs to be scrapped. I will DIRECTLY lay the mess we are in at the feet of public education, which teaches are kids to be victims, that government is the answer, that we are all victims, etc. That leads back to the parents who should be counteracting all this but who more often than not don't know about it and don't know any better themselves.

The parents have the ultimate responsibility but they do not live in a vacuum and the outside world including public schools is the overriding influence unfortunately on most kids.

See above.

If the tone of this is dickish, I promise it's not intended. I enjoy to discussions. I respect most here and would never be a dick intentionally.

[chadbag]

You are describing where experiences happen. Not education.

You are making an artificial distinction. Education comes through experience. Whether it is directed and controlled experience like in the home or at school or chance experience on TV or the street. All of these things educate.

Things happen to children in these areas. They then come home to have a discussion about them and find out what they should take from these encounters in these areas and what they should learn. This all happens at home. Sloughing that responsibility off onto the street, TV, school, is lazy and wrong.

Nobody "sloughed" that off onto the street, TV, school, etc. I agree that what you described SHOULD happen. Parents SHOULD talk with their children about all the educational inputs they have and help them navigate what is right and wrong, truth and propaganda, etc.

2 things to say here.

1. If your situation precludes you from being able to effectively raise kids then don't have kids. Having kids is a choice.

No argument there. But that is a stupid answer anyway because lots of people DO have kids anyway so we have to deal with and shape things to match the reality, not the ideal.

2. Both parents working and you ignored the first point? Plenty of families make it work. To say you can't is lazy and wrong. (did I say that already?)

Again, most kids raised in homes where both parents work fulltime are missing out and are neglected. Even those "who make it work." I stand firm in Dr Laura's camp. However, you describe the ideal while I describe things how they are. Most kids raised as latch-key kids don't have the parental interaction that is desirable.

My points were describing things how they ARE. Whether or not they are ideal, or we agree. Kids are educated in public schools, by the TV, on the streets, by the neighborhood, etc. I agree that is not the way it should be, but for (I assume) a majority of kids, that is the way it is. So we have to deal with the reality and propose solutions that work in that reality. We may get to the point some day where the ideal is also approached by reality, but at the time we don't. So the ideal is not a basis to start on getting things changed. The ideal is still important to talk about as there will be some who "get it" and change their behavior, but most won't.

Here is a parallel: I have a 100% cure for AIDS. Abstinence before marriage and fidelity/monogamy after marriage. However, it is not a very realistic cure. So while it is important to talk about and encourage, you also need to talk about "safe sex" and all the other lesser ways of avoiding its spread because people will still screw around no matter what you tell them.

Same with society and parenting.

[rob_s]

Having come late to the current public school system (my girlfriend and I have been together 3 years and her boy is 11 now), and not eased into it from Kindergarten like most "parents", I am constantly reminded of the following

"Before they built that church they built that schoolhouse. They rounded every pup into that schoolhouse because they fancied that everyone should think and talk the same freethinking way they do, with no regard to station, custom, propriety. And that is why they will win. Because they believe everyone should live and think just like them. And we shall lose because we don't care one way or another how they live. We just worry about ourselves."--Mr. Evans (Zach Grenier) to Jake (Tobey Maguire) and Jack

[ZDL]

You are making an artificial distinction. Education comes through experience. Whether it is directed and controlled experience like in the home or at school or chance experience on TV or the street. All of these things educate.



Nobody "sloughed" that off onto the street, TV, school, etc. I agree that what you described SHOULD happen. Parents SHOULD talk with their children about all the educational inputs they have and help them navigate what is right and wrong, truth and propaganda, etc.



No argument there. But that is a stupid answer anyway because lots of people DO have kids anyway so we have to deal with and shape things to match the reality, not the ideal.



Again, most kids raised in homes where both parents work fulltime are missing out and are neglected. Even those "who make it work." I stand firm in Dr Laura's camp. However, you describe the ideal while I describe things how they are. Most kids raised as latch-key kids don't have the parental interaction that is desirable.

My points were describing things how they ARE. Whether or not they are ideal, or we agree. Kids are educated in public schools, by the TV, on the streets, by the neighborhood, etc. I agree that is not the way it should be, but for (I assume) a majority of kids, that is the way it is. So we have to deal with the reality and propose solutions that work in that reality. We may get to the point some day where the ideal is also approached by reality, but at the time we don't. So the ideal is not a basis to start on getting things changed. The ideal is still important to talk about as there will be some who "get it" and change their behavior, but most won't.

Here is a parallel: I have a 100% cure for AIDS. Abstinence before marriage and fidelity/monogamy after marriage. However, it is not a very realistic cure. So while it is important to talk about and encourage, you also need to talk about "safe sex" and all the other lesser ways of avoiding its spread because people will still screw around no matter what you tell them.

Same with society and parenting.

What I'm getting is you advocating placing bandaides over problems instead of fixing them.

No amount of laws or overhauling of the school system will change any of the problems going on now.

Also, what I'm gathering is you feel that a perfect school system etc. will produce perfect children. Not only would that not happen, I don't want my children taught one way as everyone else with no room for personal growth. I want to pass along MY beliefs, ideas, and values to my children so when they get older they can CHOOSE to adhere to mine, improve on mine, or develop their own. You do the same and when they meet one day they say "hey we have x, x, x, x, x, and x in common. Let's talk about x, x, and x that we don't. and on and on.

Just because my ideal situation isn't a reality for many today doesn't mean it isn't right. I am practicing it therefore it is real and relevant to me. And since you seem to agree with me that the ideal situation is the one I described wouldn't you be better served adhering to it or one of your own then worrying about the state of the public school system?

[rmecapn]

Improve the quality of the education system. Most kids go through public education, so start there. Make sure that kids have a solid foundation in economics, history, and a very basic understanding of constitutional (and state constitutional) law. Young people are a lot more willing to "fight" mainstream media than people give them credit for, provided they're educated on the subject.

You're joking, right? The public education system is one of the primary reasons we have the mindset we do in this nation. The precious public ed system is one of the primary indoctrination vehicles being used by the social engineers to push us towards their idea of utopia. Remove public education and you might have something.

[rob_s]

While it may be a reality for you, it's not a reality for the rest of the world, and one day those kids you are raising in the ideal will come in contact with those that are being raised less than ideally.

The public school system has to be addressed one way or the other. It either needs to be improved so that the minimum standards for the "less than ideal" are higher, met, and encouraged or it needs to be abolished so that they can fend for themselves.

Either way, you're never going to be able to get stars on the bellies of all of the Sneetches. Somebody will always have to have a plainbelly and sweep the floors.

The question is; should those plainbellies get to vote?

IMHO no too great an emphasis can be put on history. It should be the base subject that all others come from. No amount of mathematics, language arts, science, economics etc. are going to be anything without knowing what came before.

[chadbag]

What I'm getting is you advocating placing bandaides over problems instead of fixing them.

No. Absolutely not. I am advocating doing things that will have an effect, including advocating parental responsibility. Your "solution" will not fix any problem because alone, it is a utopian solution that can never be implemented. Some people will listen but most won't. So you have to also apply fixes to the environment.

No amount of laws or overhauling of the school system will change any of the problems going on now.

Uh, this is probably wrong. If, and again, this borders on utopian, if you could kick the NEA out of the schools and stick to the basics of education -- reading, writing, arithmetic, and stuff like that (Band!), people would not be propagandized from the time they are toddlers into thinking that Government is the solution and we are all victims. Things would be different if that were the case.

That is why I support home schooling, charter schools, school vouchers, private/parochial schools, etc instead of the standard public schools.

Also, what I'm gathering is you feel that a perfect school system etc. will produce perfect children. Not only would that not happen, I don't want my children taught one way as everyone else with no room for personal growth. I want to pass along MY beliefs, ideas, and values to my children so when they get older they can CHOOSE to adhere to mine, improve on mine, or develop their own. You do the same and when they meet one day they say "hey we have x, x, x, x, x, and x in common. Let's talk about x, x, and x that we don't. and on and on.

I in no way think the perfect school system would create perfect children. In fact, to me, the perfect school system is not run by the government but is a marketplace of opportunities -- various private schools, home schools, etc. But that is utopian. And not likely to happen.

I agree with you on what you say above. I DO believe in parental responsibility. But given the likelihood of that becoming the de facto modus operandi in the USA is basically nil (we need to keep working on it nevertheless), we also need to work on changing the environment that kids are schooled in. Get back to basic education and away from the touchy feelie crap and the we are all victims crap and the government is the big savior crap.

Just because my ideal situation isn't a reality for many today doesn't mean it isn't right. I am practicing it therefore it is real and relevant to me. And since you seem to agree with me that the ideal situation is the one I described wouldn't you be better served adhering to it or one of your own then worrying about the state of the public school system?

I do adhere to it for my own kids. My son is 5 and will start a formal home schooling next year. We also attend a church that we are active in that supports are beliefs.

But we also need to worry about the state of the public school system as that is where the future leaders and voters come from (in the majority). That is the environment your kids are exposed to (exposed to those children in the neighborhood who are in the public schools if you kids aren't).

Where do you think all these Obama voters come from? They were brainwashed in public schools to believe in socialism.

Let me put it this way: Say you have fire insurance on your house, plus a fire hydrant in your front yard, and maybe an internal sprinkler system, plus you don't smoke in bed and you turn off your stove when you are not cooking and you keep things away from your furnace and hot water heater. All systems in your house are double checked and inspected for proper functioning yearly. Don't you think you'd still be concerned about an excessive accumulation of brush and dead wood in your neighborhood, or big piles of combustible trash at the end of the road? Wouldn't you want to help your neighbor put out the fire if his house caught on fire? There are lots of external environmental things that affect you even with your house in order. I think trying to control and affect those external things is worthwhile since they have an affect on you whether or not you care to and even if you are doing everything in your own home perfectly.

[chadbag]

You're joking, right? The public education system is one of the primary reasons we have the mindset we do in this nation. The precious public ed system is one of the primary indoctrination vehicles being used by the social engineers to push us towards their idea of utopia. Remove public education and you might have something.

Actually, I initially gave this a +1.

However, on re-reading it, while I agree that ideally you remove public education, that is not going to happen any time soon, so what rmecapn was replying to is desirable. Reform of public education to focus on learning basic stuff and not the socialist crap. Firm understanding of history, math, hard science, etc. Leave out everything else.

[BAC]

Education happens at home.

Partly, yes. It also takes place outside of the home, specifically in school settings. Not everyone has, or can have, stay-at-home parents, so it's almost a given that at least some education will not be at home. eguns-com is dead on, here. Learning as a whole takes place continuously and doesn't just turn off when children aren't under their parent's/parents' roof. Further, not so many parents are as educated in a wide variety of topics as school teachers are; I'm not the best historian out there, so I'd like my kids to have the chance to learn from someone who actually has a scholarly background in that area.

You're joking, right? The public education system is one of the primary reasons we have the mindset we do in this nation. The precious public ed system is one of the primary indoctrination vehicles being used by the social engineers to push us towards their idea of utopia. Remove public education and you might have something.

No, a poor public education system is a result of that. Removal of a public education system is to remove the only chance many children have of receiving an education at all. What you're seeing is a result of an extremely top-heavy system where the US government's hands are dipping into things they ought not to be. Cut off or severely limit the Dept. of Education so that the money flow doesn't keep reinforcing bad habits. Get public with the need to reform the way educators are trained and "flood the market" with quality educators. Re-prioritize where and how money is spent in public schools, with the strongest focus being on educators, on physical education, and on school safety. Oh, and maybe enforce lesson plans so that instructors are passing on knowledge, not personal beliefs.

ZDL, you made a point to mention your desire to pass on your beliefs and values to your children. All well and good, but when they're older the great likelihood is that they won't choose any different than that which they were raised with. You might think this is a good thing, but you've effectively eliminated that "choice" you just spoke of. Something to think about.


What's worrying me is that this conversation seems to be moving towards whether or not we should limit people's ability to vote. To this, I've questioned everyone who brings it up with my why they vote the way they do. Quizzed them on what they knew about the person they're supporting. I've encouraged them to look it up if they're not sure, and to dig deeper than a candidate's website and televised speeches. Simply put, I encourage folks not to vote unless they know what they're voting for. You can tell when it's working by the troubled face of a coworker the day after you had that conversation.


-B

[rmecapn]

Reform of public education to focus on learning basic stuff and not the socialist crap.

That will be about as easy as removing public ed altogether.

Firm understanding of history, ..., hard science, etc.

Whose version of history? Whose version of science?

The reality is that what is occurring within public ed is just a symptom of a much deeper issue in our culture.