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Thread: US Army chooses Sig Tango6 1-6 for DMR?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slater View Post
    Heck, I didn't realize that SIG even manufactured optics. I figured they were just made for SIG by another company.
    I read a while back their optics dept worked closely with Leupold.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack7.62 View Post
    Hey it's waterproof down to 1 meter and has a HellFire™ electronic-illuminated reticle system what more do you want?
    I think I would like to see an adjustable objective on this scope. Maybe I have overlooked something, but I would think parallax could be a problem at any distance.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fledge View Post
    I read a while back their optics dept worked closely with Leupold.
    What I heard was more along the lines of “hired people away from” Leupold.

  4. #14
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    I'm more interested in why they chose such a low powered scope.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slateman View Post
    I'm more interested in why they chose such a low powered scope.
    To engage targets in close proximity as well as distant.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdmiller View Post
    What I heard was more along the lines of “hired people away from” Leupold.
    This is correct. Some of the Leupold employees took positions with Sig. The Sig Tango6 5.5-30 I had was amazing. I compared it directly next to similarly setup Rifles with Vortex Razor and Nightforce optics and ended up going with the Sig Tango6 due to price being less for not really any discernible difference
    Jon
    EMT Advanced

    Be without fear in the face of your enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death.
    Safe guard the helpless and do no wrong.


    In the end, as you fade into the night, who will tell, the story of your life?
    ---------------
    JF Arms Company - Owner

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigman7 View Post
    To engage targets in close proximity as well as distant.
    It's cheaper and easier to put a scope on the 8-12 end of magnification and offset a RMR.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwfuhrman View Post
    The Sig Tango6 5.5-30 I had was amazing.
    What happened to it?
    - Rhino

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHINOWSO View Post
    What happened to it?
    Sold it with the gun it was on.
    Jon
    EMT Advanced

    Be without fear in the face of your enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death.
    Safe guard the helpless and do no wrong.


    In the end, as you fade into the night, who will tell, the story of your life?
    ---------------
    JF Arms Company - Owner

  10. #20
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    Here is some information you may find interesting about the development and capabilities of the 1-6x24 scope. When I first introduced the concept of the FSCO (Full Spectrum Combat Optic) 1-6x24 FFP Horseshoe reticle scope for use on a modern assault rifle or battle carbine the concept was met with a lot of resistance. Why do we need a 1-6? FFP reticle----NO WAY. Horseshoe reticle-----THAT THINK IS STUPID---WAY TO BIG!!!!!!

    Interesting. Look what the Army just purchased

    Please let me clarify that the Horseshoe reticle in the scope I developed and the Horseshoe reticle in the Sig scope are similar but I don't think the Sig scope uses the "RULE Of Ten" in their reticle. Our scope is made and assembled in Japan.

    It has been several years since my last post on this website. We have done a lot of testing in those years developing of our Combat Rifle Scope (CRS). This thread is about a optic for a fighting rifle, my comments will be based on that.

    Before I go any further let me define some of the terms I will be using.

    Full spectrum: From CQB distance to max effective range. Day or night.

    Maximum effective range (hits on target): The maximum range at which the average shooter will hit the target (human) more than he misses it.

    Point target engagement: a specific size target that you can expect to hit to a specific distance. Example, a human head would be a point target to about 300 yards. A human chest would be a point target to about 600 yards.

    Area target engagement: A specific size target at a specific distance that you do not expect to hit but hope to hit. Example: A human head would be a area target for a assault/battle rifle or battle carbine at 1,000 yards.

    Package: your rifle--scope and ammo.

    Intrinsic accuracy: The maximum degree of accuracy that a package can deliver when not affected by outside factors such as wind or human error (movement) etc.

    Practical accuracy: The degree of accuracy obtainable when used in the real world taking into account factors such as wind and human error etc.

    Anatomical reticle: The reticle in the CRS is based on the size of the average adult human body (male).
    In the military I was taught:
    Head: ~ 8 to 10"
    Shoulder width: ~ 18 to 20"
    Shoulder to mid sternum: ~10''
    Width of a man front to back (sideways) mid sternum: ~ 10 to 12"

    I call this the "RULE OF 10". The scale on the CRS reticle is based on 10''.
    The primary ranging system of the CRS reticle is based on the head.
    Secondary ranging system is based on shoulders and you can also range on a man using his body width.

    In the military I was taught to lead a moving target or adjust for wind by estimating aiming leadings in body widths.
    The Horseshoe is designed to allow you to do this out to 300 yards.
    Starting at 400 yards the CRS reticle has a series of horizontal gaps and dashes. These are in 10'' increments (BODY WIDTH) at the given distance. This allows you to adjust your aiming point for wind or moving targets.

    On the 5.56 reticle there is a MIL DOT scale on a horizontal plane at the 3 and 9 o'clock position of the Horseshoe. This can be used for milling a target or to determine cant.
    On the .308 reticle there is also a MIL DOT scale on a vertical plane.

    It is very easy to learn how to use this reticle and more important, REMEMBER how to use it when the bullets are flying and people are dying.




    OK----So hear we go.

    From the beginning the objective was to develop a rugged optic that would help keep our war fighters alive in combat. The concept called for a Full Spectrum Combat Optic (FSCO) for the modern assault/battle rifle and battle carbine. I named this the CRS. I was taught in the military that the max effective range for the M14 or M16 was about

    600 yards. I was also taught when using a magnified optic you should have 1X for every 100 yards distance to your target. Based on that and about 20 years of T&E I decided that the CRS should be a 1-6 scope with a illuminated FFP reticle. Also the scope should have simple, fast, intuitive anatomical reticle that would allow the scope to fulfill

    the FSCO role. In my opinion the scope should have capped turrets and all aiming adjustments and ranging of the target would be done on the reticle. Several years ago we teamed up with a top scope manufacture from Japan and got it done.

    Initially the reticle (M4-62reticle) was calibrated to the M855 5.56 ammo fired from a 14.5" barreled (M4 type) rifle with a 1 in 7" twist. The M4-62 reticle is calibrated to 800 yards. After we got that done we did a new reticle (175-16 reticle) calibrated for the M 118 LR ammo fired from a 16" barreled .308 rifle (battle carbine)t with a 1 in 10" twist

    . The 175-16 reticle is calibrated to 1,200 yards.

    Now here is what we have found after a lot of testing with these scopes. The max effective range with our current infantry rifles and ammo is farther than 600 yards. It is important to remember that the package is zeroed at 100 yards and all aiming corrections are made on the reticle. We DO NOT touch the W/E turrets. We have tested the

    5.56 rifles with 14.5" and 16" 1 in 7" twist barrels using 55 gr, 62 gr and 77 gr ammo to 1,000 yards on human sized targets. We have found max effective range for point target engagement on a human size targets is about 800 yds with the 5.56 ammo. Best accuracy results are achieved with the 77 gr ammo. The 55 and 62 gr is iffy at this

    distance but it has been done. The BIG problem Is the wind at that distance. There is a poa/poi difference in elevation when using different weight ammo but it is easy to correct for using the reticle. Based on the intrinsic accuracy and field testing of this package I believe max effective range will be about 800 yards when using the 77gr ammo.

    .
    We have been able to get hits on target to 1,000 yards (area target engagement ) when using the 5.56 ammo with the 175-16 (.308) reticle. The ballistic path of the 77gr. ammo out of a 16" 1 in7" twist barrel is very close to the ballistic path of the M118LR ammo out of a .308 rifle with a 16" barrel to 1,000 yards.

    With the .308 package we are getting consistent max effective range on point (20"x35") target engagement to 1,000 yards and area target engagement to 1,200 yards. Again based on our testing and the intrinsic accuracy of this package I believe max effective range is about 1,000 yards. We have tested this package with higher magnification

    scopes and did not see a improvement in practical accuracy until we got to 10X and beyond and that was a very slight improvement, but our testing has been limited in this regard. At this point I am of the opinion that the 1-6 and the 1-8 scopes we have tested deliver the same degree of practical accuracy at max effective range with this package.

    Please don't get me wrong, myself and the other testers did like the extra 2X offered by the 1-8 scopes. This would be beneficial for target ID etc. but the extra 2X did not seem to translate to more hits on target or better shot placement. More testing may change my opinion.


    Up to this point I have been talking about max effective range (long range) performance. The #1 priority for the CRS was CQB performance. Up close you will be faster than your enemy or you will be dead. I believe we can all agree the fastest/best optics for CQB engagements are the red dot gun sights (RDS) like the Aimpoint or Eotech. I

    think a properly designed LPV can equal or even beat a (RDS) in the CQB environment..Three gun shooters using LPVs in competition bear witness to this. The learning curve for the LPV will probably be a little longer . We have found that eye relief, eye box reticle illumination (indoors) and "fitting" the rifle to the shooter is critical for speed in

    the CQB environment. In our testing we find the LPVs start to dominate the RDS beyond 100 yards. We have found that ILLUMINATION and RETICLE design are the most important factors in the performance of FSCO.

    Question; if you are carrying a GP (general purpose) rifle in a combat environment that has max effective range of 800 to 1,000 yards why would you want to put a optic on that rifle that would limit your max effective range to 500 yards or less? Especially when you could put a LPV on that rifle that gives up little or nothing compared to a RDS

    in the CQB role. Yes I know about OUNCES EQAULS POUNDS AND POUNDS EQUALS PAIN, been there done that, but I also know about carrying a piece of equipment that won't get the job done.

    We have tested our CRS side by side against other scopes that had better glass better illumination and more magnification. The reticle in the CRS is what would give the CRS the edge. Example: we are shooting out to 1,000 yards. CRS vs Burris 1-8 with a FFP BDC reticle calibrated for 5.56 out to 600 yards. The Burris scope was on a 17"

    F&D .308 rifle. The CRS was on a 16" LWRC REPR. AMMO-- M118 LR. Burris set at 8x, CRS set at 6x. From 100 to 600 yards the performance of the scopes was the same. With the Burris scope we stopped at 600 yards because to shoot beyond 600 yards with the reticle in the Burris we would have to KNOW our DOPE for that package and

    use the turrets to dial in the the aiming corrections for the different distances. NOT very practical in a dynamic firefight. WE don't KNOW the DOPE for that package or the REPR package. With the reticle in the CRS we don't need to KNOW the dope, we just need to KNOW the distance to the target and make the aiming corrections on the

    reticle. The CRS reticle allows you to range a human target very quickly. With the CRS we were able to hit every target to 1,000 yards just using the reticle. We got similar results using the Bushnell 1-8, VCOG and Kahles 1-6.


    Illumination: The CRS has the whole BDC reticle illuminated and is adjustable for brightness. This allows you to use the BDC reticle indoors and to the maximum range to which it is calibrated in a low light environment. It also works very well with clip on NVDs. Other scopes that only illuminate the top portion of the reticle will require you to use your turrets to engage targets at longer distances in a low light environment.

    Some have criticized the scope because the illumination is not day time bright. This is a valid criticism, but we have never found the illumination lacking in a indoors environment and don't find it necessary outdoors on a bright day. The size and thickness of the Horseshoe portion of the reticle was designed to be used at low power for fast

    hits on target (Combat Accuracy) from CQB distances to 300 yards in day light without illumination. I think the following videos will illustrate this point. What will happen to a scope that depends on its illuminated reticle to be fast on target if the illumination fails?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krho...ature=youtu.be

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSzcsrXIMyU




    Here are some pictures of what you can do with the CRS at various distances.

    Here's Pepper at 1,000 yards. 12 shots.. 5 hits! Pepper claims that is two hits on the right shoulder. So that would 6 hits. Notice Pepper's hair (wind).


    Here's Pepper at 1,025 yards.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnWA-Vt8CS4


    Here's the CRS out to 535 yards day and night, using PVS 22.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Sr6ardD2I

    Here's some groups we shot at 100 yards.



    10 shots 7 hits at 1,025 yards.


    Area target engagement on a 10 inch plate at 1,025 yards. 30 shots 5 hits.



    CRS at night using PVS 22






    We have also been testing a prototype of a new 1-10x30 scope.

    I was able to do a side by side test at 1025 yards with our 1-6 CRS and a prototype of a 1-10x30 we are testing. CRS was set at 6x the prototype was set at 10x. Rifles used were .308 with 16'' 1 in 10 twist barrels. Ammo M118 LR. Target 20'' X26''.
    Fired two five shot groups, one with each rifle. Hit the target 3 out of five shots with each rifle. Hits with the O around the bullet were made with 10x prototype scope. Hits with the X on the bullet strike were made with 6x CRS.
    Group size for 3 hits at 1025 yard:
    1-6 CRS=12''
    1-10 prototype=13''





    Next pictures 1025 yards, target 20x24'' and 20x26''.

    1-6 CRS 3 out of 5 hits on target. Group size 20''

    1-10 prototype 2 out of 5 hits. Group size 17''





    There doesn't seem to be a big difference in practical accuracy at this range with the extra 4X.


    Here is another example: same day same rifle (REPR) scope, ammo, etc. different target.

    Target: 12'' disk (sectional) 1025 yards.
    Take the rifle out of bag. I didn't check zero. Aim dead on with 1025 aiming point on reticle. First shot (cold bore), spotter calls elevation dead on windage approx 3' right. Second shot, same aiming point to confirm. Spotter calls same impact. 3' is 36'' so I compensate on the reticle using the rule of 10''.
    Here is the 3rd shot.



    I hope you all found this interesting and it will give a little better understanding of the capabilities of the 1-6x24 CRS scope.

    Ed Verdugo
    Last edited by GRSC; 08-18-18 at 21:56.

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