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Thread: 1st rounds fliers...what causes them?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaijin View Post
    My experience has not been with 1st, but LAST rd. fliers, in an autoloader/AR.
    Fairly regularly when shooting to bolt lock I’ll have a rd. substantially out of the group.
    I read a Seekins article that tried to explain this as a barrel harmonics issue-that barrel doesn’t vibrate/flex the same when bolt doesn’t go forward.

    As far as 1st rd. fliers; as long as I charge the gun by dropping bolt with bolt release- I’ve not experienced this issue.
    Yeah, what’s up with the LAST round fliers? I get those too and it doesn’t make sense as the bullet has left the barrel long before the bolt locks back.

  2. #32
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    Barrel makers and bench shooters say that is false. Barrells shoot better, fouling especially copper removed. Clean barrels shoot better at the highest levels.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerblue View Post
    All of my AR’s equipped with magnified optics also have two-stage triggers and all will throw the first round high if a chamber using the charging handle. If I load by releasing the BCG from lock-back, the first round is not thrown and the groups are even.

    I believe that releasing the bolt more closely mimics the cycling of the action after a fired round.
    When I got into AR's, my buddy who was most knowledgeable always said for best groups, release first round from lock back, don't charge via charging handle. Always followed this advice really only for scope and sight zeros, and haven't seen the first round flier for those cases. Never really thought about it until this thread popped up.

  4. #34
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    If your first round flyer off-set is consistent, just remember it and compensate with your sight alignment, then aim dead center for subsequent rounds...same principle as with a sound suppressor off-set...remember you are in control, not the rifle...
    ColdBlue sends...
    (CB is David A. Lutz, Lt. Col. USMC (Ret'd) (1968-1991)
    Former (now retired) VP MilOps @ Knight's Armament Company (KAC) (1994-2012)
    "...if you can read this, thank a Teacher,
    if you are reading this in English, thank a Veteran..."

  5. #35
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    I had a couple first-round-flyers this morning, both with 69gr FGMM:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ot-Upper/page2


    I had been shooting 5-shot groups all morning (seven or eight of them, for 35-40rnds), so the gun wasn't cold or clean.

    (I always put five in a mag, put the mag in the gun with the bolt already locked back, and chamber the first round by pressing the bolt catch (not using the charging handle.)

    I shot a group of Norma inbetween and afterwards, and both of those grouped nicely, so was not me, not the gun, not global warming, not the Illuminati, not the rotation of the earth, not what I had for breakfast (oatmeal, again), etc. etc. etc.

    I figured there might be something wrong/whacky with the FGMM...


    Quote Originally Posted by littlejerry View Post
    I recently went down the rabbit hole chasing my first round flier...

    After a lot of experimentation I found the culprit: my 1st Gen 20rd pmags(the straight ones). They had been my go-to bench mags for a while. When I tried a new 30 rounder in my range bag the first round flier went away. Bought some newer 20rd curved PMAGS and no issue either.

    So, food for thought: if you see first round fliers when using the bolt release or charging handle, consider trying a different mag.

    I'm trying hard NOT to go down the rabbithole... Little Jerry may have saved me.

    I didn't pay attention to what mag I was using with the FGMM (they're numbered, but I don't keep track unless there's a malfunction), but there IS a good chance I used the same mag for both strings of FGMM.

    Next time I'll pay more attention!
    Last edited by Bimmer; 11-05-20 at 22:45.

  6. #36
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    Glad I saved you time, and ammo.

    Pretty frustrating to chase an issue and look at the amount of ammo you burned after the fact.

    Also funny to think about pinching pennies on a new match barrel when you might have to burn up $100 worth of match ammo to find a load your rifle likes.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejerry View Post
    Also funny to think about pinching pennies on a new match barrel when you might have to burn up $100 worth of match ammo to find a load your rifle likes.
    If this is dig at my choice of WOA over BRT in that other thread... I don't doubt that BRT (or Compass Lake or whatever) is worth the extra money, I just couldn't see that I would be able to take advantage of it.

    As is, that WOA upper shoots three of the four kinds of factory "match" ammo that I have (FGMM, TAP, and Norma) realllly well (consistently sub-moa, even with those first-round-flyers). It doesn't like the old Black Hills load (75g, w/ moly) at all, but no other gun does, either.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmer View Post
    If this is dig at my choice of WOA over BRT in that other thread... I don't doubt that BRT (or Compass Lake or whatever) is worth the extra money, I just couldn't see that I would be able to take advantage of it.

    As is, that WOA upper shoots three of the four kinds of factory "match" ammo that I have (FGMM, TAP, and Norma) realllly well (consistently sub-moa, even with those first-round-flyers). It doesn't like the old Black Hills load (75g, w/ moly) at all, but no other gun does, either.
    Not at all a dig at you. WOA makes good barrels, and is well known in the service rifle world as a a go-to for accuracy. BRT conversely has no reputation in competition. Not saying they are a bad choice... Just that it would take a lot of convincing for me to choose one of their barrels for LR precision over a known quantity. I say this as someone who loves their 12.5 BRT barrel.

    Just a general comment for myself and all the be other threads you see on forums. After personally burning so much ammo on a mediocre barrel trying to find something that'll group, I'd much rather just plunk down the money for a Craddock, Shilen, CLE, WOA, etc. The time and ammo cost makes it worthwhile IMO.
    Last edited by littlejerry; 11-06-20 at 10:42.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejerry View Post
    Not at all a dig at you. WOA makes good barrels, and is well known in the service rifle world as a a go-to for accuracy...

    Just a general comment for myself and all the be other threads you see on forums. After personally burning so much ammo on a mediocre barrel trying to find something that'll group, I'd much rather just plunk down the money for a Craddock, Shilen, CLE, WOA, etc. The time and ammo cost makes it worthwhile IMO.
    All clear... This was my thinking, too.

    I was looking at Aero and some other off-brands, but when WOA was available for less than $700, it didn't make sense to mess with anything else.

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