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  1. #1
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    9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?

    Instead of comparing a 9mm Subgun to an SBR cambered in 556 in the role of home defense/room clearing, I'd like to know what you guys think in terms of using a suppressed Subgun in that role. More specifically, why or why it isn't viable for that role. I see a lot of people saying that a 9mm Subgun is nothing but a range toy and with the rising popularity, it's hard to imagine that since it reigned supreme for so long. Again, I'm specifically asking about a 9mm Subgun, not comparing it to a 556.

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  2. #2
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    Viable? I mean, it'll get the job done. It just simply isn't going to be as effective as a true rifle caliber. A .38 snubbie is a viable home defense gun for the average person, but that doesn't mean that a Glock 17 with a WML isn't a better choice, which in turn is superseded by a suppressed PCC generally, which is going to be outmatched by a rifle.

    AFAIK, historically, the SMGs got the nod for CQB because they were more reliable the old short rifles; once the shorties got reliable enough, the SMGs got replaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR
    1/4/14

    As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

    From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:


    Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

    In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if multiple criminals were assaulting me, if a precision shot was required, if the assailant was wearing body armor, in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun. In addition, of the shoulder fired weapons commonly used for self-defense, shotguns are the most difficult to effectively employ and require the most training to properly use.

    Most citizens would do well to follow the lead of LE agencies in their locale and pick similar weapons to what LE feels is prudent and necessary for defensive use against the criminals in that jurisdiction. Often times these days that is 9 mm or .40 pistols with a 15-17 round magazines and AR15's with 30 rd magazines.

    Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 "Garand" rifle, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
    Last edited by Defaultmp3; 05-28-18 at 20:45.
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  3. #3
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    It could work, but there are things that could work better. I’ve considered it for my wife, because it could be lighter and shorter, but I’ve heard they still recoil about as much as an AR. My biggest consideration reviles around how quickly I (or she) could get rounds on target.


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    I own multiple 5.56 rifles and 9mm PCC.

    A 5.56 rifle is what sits besides my bed. I do however carry a 9mm in a back pack for when I need a covert shoulder fired weapon.

  5. #5
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    Viable? Yes, certainly. A baseball is probably viable. I'm not quite sure why you'd phrase the question like that;if the whole point is viable defense, and if we know thing A is viable, but there's some question about the viability of thing B, then every point about B is essentially a comparison to A. No?

    Anyways, confusion aside, I wouldn't hesitate to use a PCC to defend my house.

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    I built a 9mm just for this. Colt SMG mags. It eats every single HP load I've ever tried in it but it particularly likes the unicorn +P+ Ranger T. The only malfunction I've ever had on it was from Rem 115 JHP bulk from Walmart. It just refuses to run that stuff. If you use Colt pattern mags get the Maglula. Those springs are no joke.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowrider View Post
    I built a 9mm just for this. Colt SMG mags. It eats every single HP load I've ever tried in it but it particularly likes the unicorn +P+ Ranger T. The only malfunction I've ever had on it was from Rem 115 JHP bulk from Walmart. It just refuses to run that stuff. If you use Colt pattern mags get the Maglula. Those springs are no joke.
    I agree the mag loader is a must!


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  8. #8
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    While this argument only has a small window of validity;

    Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments.

    for example, short of bedrooms to keep in mind, our closest neighbors is through a set of thick woods on all sides of our property. The likelihood of penetrating an exterior wall and hitting someone else's property is severely low.

    A 5.56 is a stronger round, efficient, and has some known reliable expansion ammo.

    With that being said, if I lived in a townhouse, surrounded by people on all sides, a subgun would probably be more in my favor. It's still able and capable of punching through shite, but not as much as the 5.56.

    There are some arguements you could apply based on your environment. But arguments based on comparison of the two, as weapon systems? Nah, the Short AR will out beat it every time. Hell even a true supressed .300 Blk would be an amazing option in regards to SBR with a can.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeruMew View Post
    While this argument only has a small window of validity;

    Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments.
    You realize the 9mm more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56 yes? Seems counter intuitive, but one should not choose 9mm for that reason.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeruMew View Post
    Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments....With that being said, if I lived in a townhouse, surrounded by people on all sides, a subgun would probably be more in my favor. It's still able and capable of punching through shite, but not as much as the 5.56.
    This is factually incorrect.

    "Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration." US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG)
    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...xperts-opinion

    "Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall." Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor)
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...sulated-walls/

    "Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood." James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo)
    http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long...fense-caliber/

    "The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something." Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch)
    https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-...e-defense-guns

    "The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers." Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub)
    http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/20...ration-issues/

    "FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun." Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor)
    http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07...ation-testing/

    "Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons." Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert)
    http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotg...#ixzz4zCOCPykZ
    "The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards."
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