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Thread: Firing an AR Inside With No Hearing Protection

  1. #71
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    Firing an AR Inside With No Hearing Protection

    Quote Originally Posted by ubet View Post
    That's all shotguns are good for. I can't stand them. Other than shooting birds, which I don't do, I can see no reason to EVER pick up a shotgun, if their is anything else. I would use me ruger 22/45 Mk3 for protection before a shotgun.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    That's an assinine statement. If I had I had choose between a 12GA and a .22 for self defense it would be the 12GA every time. Is he 12GA perfect? Nope. It's still a powerful and effect weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to run one. One ounce slugs are devastating. This was with a 14" bbl. The "little holes" are .40.








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    Last edited by usmcvet; 07-15-18 at 18:10.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    I AM NOT advocating the use of a shotgun for home defense over any other weapon.

    Just wanting to ask your frame of reference for making the statements you've made. Shotgun classes? Field experience? Because it seems you might be parroting things you've heard other places from other uninformed sources.

    1. Recoil. Much of the recoil can be negated by using low recoil ammunition and proper technique.

    2. Low capacity. Obviously lower than the pistol or the AR. But, most shotguns purposed for home defense have mag tube extensions given a capacity of 6 to 8 rounds. Agreed, you can never have too much ammo, but is 6 to 8 rounds too little for an HD situation?

    3. Ammo is large and cumbersome. The biggest disadvantage with this is single shell loading. As for you can only carry so much, how much do you need to carry for HD?

    4. Inaccurate. In today's world one of the biggest problems affecting accuracy with buckshot is improper choke selection for the round being used. So you do have to do some work in selecting your load and choke, obviously more than with the rifle or pistol.

    With modern HD loads the flyer I am most worried about is the wad. Inside ten yards most HD buckshot loads will be smaller than fist-sized. I've seen hundreds of ten yard headshots on steel in under 1.5 from either depressed ready or international ready with no hits on the hostage targets. It depends on your training and confidence. That being said, once again the flyer I'm most concerned with is the wad.

    In your scenario, whether I had a shotgun, a pistol, or a rifle, I would not hesitate to shoot if need be. Why? because I practice with all three, and in the shotgun's case, I tailor my loads to the situation I feel I will encounter - I load nothing but Brennecke slugs into the tubes of the two shotguns I have in the safe which are earmarked for potential home defense.

    5) Really short effective range. Here is a news flash - as range increases hit probability will decrease with any weapon. Granted, with buckshot loads beyond 35ish yards the buckshot spread is the more likely cause of flyers, but inside 25 yards, aimed fire should put all pellets on target. If you use slugs for HD, that range extends to between 50 and 75 yards for a moderately trained shooter using bead sights.

    So, the issue becomes what is the effective range needed for the HD scenario you envision? That should be a primary factor in your ammo selection. Based on my perceptions I see little use for buckshot in HD situations.

    As for this: Other than good terminal ballistics in one shot on a chest, I see nothing that it does better than a PCC or rifle. 1 to 3 shots at the same chest will stop the perp just as dead as any buckshot load. Dead is dead. There are more disadvantages than advantages for using a shotgun for home defense.

    First thing is that unless you want to wait for the guy to bleed out, or the 10 to 15 seconds it can take someone to cease actions after having their heart pulped, chest shots are not the most reliable stoppers. Having said that, assuming that someone can double with buckshot in the time it takes you to fire 3 to 4 rounds with your 9mm PCC, they have 16 to 18 wound channels versus your 3 to 4. Hmm, which will bleed out faster?

    Once again, I am not advocating the shotgun for home defense over any other weapon.

    My point is that for a moderately trained operator, the shotgun can be a viable home defense weapon, if they nedd to rely on it for one reason or another. The person that thinks, hey I'll load the shotgun with buckshot and then just point it at the guy and shoot, is woefully ignorant and ill-prepared.
    Experience with a shotgun? Not that it matters but it's about as much as anyone else who owns one. I can say though with military experience that when things go bad, they go bad. CQB engagements can turn into sustained ones and longer range ones that exceed the limitations of a shotgun. My post wasn't a jab at you.

    As far as recoil goes, more is more. Period. It hinders follow up shots no matter how good you can manage it. If you can handle it like a boss, you'd handle something with less recoil even better.

    6 to 8 rounds is good if it's only one attacker. Not so good if more are involved. Not so good if the attacker or attackers are behind cover. I don't plan for perfect home defense scenarios where there is only one attacker and he isn't taking cover or moves behind my effective range and continues the fight. Home defense scenarios can vary. Even more so if you have a lot of land.

    As far as modern defensive loads being fist sized with good chokes, it's still inaccurate enough to risk someone's life who is close by the target. No one in their right mind can take a shot with a family member close by. Think hostage or the attacker attacking a family member with a head or other vital exposed. With a rifle or pistol calibered carbine, you can take the shot if close enough and the risk warrants it. I would never chance that with a shotgun. Ever. It's a limitation if that need ever arises.

    I guess entry teams in both the military and law enforcement need to change their loadouts to shotguns because 1 to 3 shots in the thoracic cavity with M4's or Mp5's will not cut it.

    I disagree with your point about a shotgun with moderately trained person being a viable home defense weapon. Experienced people short stroke pumps all the time in 3 gun matches. My wife for example can release the safety with her thumb on her PCC and empty the magazine until it goes dry without the need for racking and finding the target all over again after every shot. She can reload it too fairly quickly with a couple of spare magazines already attached to the stock. I couldn't imagine her doing that with a shotgun. Her long fingernails would hinder her in loading the shells into the tube. For a moderately trained shooter there is a lot more that can go wrong with a shotgun in my opinion.
    Last edited by wtm75; 07-15-18 at 18:25.

  3. #73
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    bamashooter bamashooter is offline
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    Sucks big time and only takes once to cause damage. But if in a "real" situation, you're not even aware of it til it's over. At least that's my experience. I have severe Tinnitus which may / may not have been caused by firearms. Had it forever. Last year a deputy buddy of mine woke up with it, still has it, and drives him crazy.




    I have had a severe case for years from military service to unprotected fire arms use, sucks.
    Last edited by greg1147; 07-15-18 at 18:50.

  4. #74
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    If an intruder came in my house to do my family harm:
    id be thrilled to have my 12g Benelli
    Or my 10.3 Colt suppressed
    HK P30 wouldn't suck

    all options are better than Louisville slugger , and Im from Kentucky!!!

    but my 10.3 would be choice.

    We shot my MPX today with Ti rant can with 147 subsonic rounds, not my choice. I want a little noise to keep the bad guys alarmed, but is was cool a f$ck.

    PB
    Last edited by Pappabear; 07-15-18 at 18:57.
    "Air Force / Policeman / Fireman / Man of God / Friend of mine / R.I.P. Steve Lamy"

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