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Thread: "The Fighting Season" Weapon Loadout Analysis

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moshjath View Post
    I was an Infantry Platoon Leader in the same general area of Afghanistan in the same timeframe as this series. My Platoon’s direct fire engagements ranged from about 40m to 900m out. The most difficult aspect of every engagement was gaining PID on the threat...and I don’t think that having a LPVO over the ACOGs that most of us had would have made any difference. The terrain we found ourselves in through that deployment ranged from very mountainous to flat desert to very vegetated agricultural areas with the typical Afghan biblical era mud architecture villages and family compounds. The folks who fought us were in all reality mostly dirt poor farmers who made up the population of the area. They were fighting in their backyard, and were extremely adept at utilizing available cover and concealment, as well as pre-planned escape routes to break contact when the time came. Overall, extremely frustrating to try to break that cycle.

    I have no complaints about the M4 carbine as issued. You can’t see it as just a rifle in isolation- with proper echelonment of fires both organic and supporting, an Infantry Platoon as it exists today is pretty well equipped for most threats it would face, with reasonable tactical employment. My major complaint is the weight of a combat load, and I imagine that is an age old complaint.

    To the poster remarking about how today’s Infantrymen lack the “savagery” of your early GWOT (presumably) Infantry unit- what is your frame of reference? Early Iraq? The rules have changed significantly over the years- we weren’t even supposed to enter Afghan homes in 2014. The geography of Afghanistan itself dictates tactics somewhat- taking close in pop shots from a building in Iraq, then storming in to eliminate the threat is somewhat different from Afghanistan, when you take harassing fire from nearly a K out...unable to see the enemy, much less think through which ones you are going to kill in what order...with a significant terrain feature between you and the enemy, especially when you can’t even tell where the fire is coming from...that situation lends itself to trying to pinpoint the threat and eliminate with CAS or other fires. You also have to weigh the possibility that you are being baited into a certain situation. My most useful tool in the PLT I found was to engage with direct fire handheld 60mm mortars.

    I can tell you, outside of all the alarmist Facebook posts out there on various veteran pages, there isn’t a significant difference between the type of Infantryman in today’s Platoons versus who I went to war alongside of for 15 months in 2007 to Iraq. Certainly no less “savage”.
    Solid post.
    RLTW
    “Your posts will be more accurate and received much better if you form your opinions with less emotion and more objectivity and then express them as if you’re in a discussion with friends, rather than an injured and cornered animal fighting for its life.” -Revolution 9 on the hide

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    I wouldnt call giving everyone a 13lb rifle getting it "right"...

    Getting something right would entail reducing soldier's load while maintaining greater or equal capability.
    7.9 pounds empty. Not 13.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    Didn't one AF ground-forces officer get awarded the MoH for his actions around there in that timeframe? I believe he was a captain.

    I dont recall. Definitely not my O-3 LOL.



    And yea in the later half of 2013 when I was in country, we couldnt even do raids on homes until after sunrise. The lack of 'savagery' was NOT at the enlisted level, and often the only thing holding up a good killing was some lawyer or division level officer. Our intel was so good we would have had a week of wearing scalps and colons if just the right person would say: "go forth and let slip the dogs of war".


    Really Im just gonna blame Obama for ruining a perfectly good war.
    "Just throw Krylon on it"

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    7.9 pounds empty. Not 13.
    No thats not accurate, wikipedia is a poor source for specific information.

    A kit'd out M27 with optic, bipod, sling, 30rnd mag is ~12.7lbs.

    A completely stripped M27 with the rail and nothing else on it is closer to 8lbs

    Thats ~3lbs heavier than a fully kit'd out M4A1.

    The current M27 is the product of a solicitation from 2007. Look at what USASOC did with the URG-I which slightly lighter than a std. M4, thats what getting it right looks like.

    People complaining about infantry not being "aggressive" enough? Its kinda hard to bound over rough terrain when you're encumbered by ~110lbs of equipment.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 07-21-18 at 14:17.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    No thats not accurate, wikipedia is a poor source for specific information.

    A kit'd out M27 with optic, bipod, sling, 30rnd mag is ~12.7lbs.

    A completely stripped M27 with the rail and nothing else on it is closer to 8lbs

    Thats ~3lbs heavier than a fully kit'd out M4A1.

    The current M27 is the product of a solicitation from 2007. Look at what USASOC did with the URG-I which slightly lighter than a std. M4, thats what getting it right looks like.

    People complaining about infantry not being "aggressive" enough? Its kinda hard to bound over rough terrain when you're encumbered by ~110lbs of equipment.
    And how much does a kitted up M4 weighs with a bipod? Do you think all troops are going to have a bipod? The slings weigh the same and the extra inch and a half of barrel weighs more.
    Last edited by wtm75; 07-21-18 at 18:01.

  6. #36
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    Bottom line is, the 416 is always heavier when configured equivalently. A M4 with a decent barrel and a good rail gets you pretty much all the performance of a 416, and comes in a little lighter.

    The cheap way to do this is to use the “SOCOM” profile barrel that is becoming ubiquitous on M4A1’s, but with a lower profile gas block, and throw a G MLOK rail on it.
    RLTW
    “Your posts will be more accurate and received much better if you form your opinions with less emotion and more objectivity and then express them as if you’re in a discussion with friends, rather than an injured and cornered animal fighting for its life.” -Revolution 9 on the hide

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Bottom line is, the 416 is always heavier when configured equivalently. A M4 with a decent barrel and a good rail gets you pretty much all the performance of a 416, and comes in a little lighter.

    The cheap way to do this is to use the “SOCOM” profile barrel that is becoming ubiquitous on M4A1’s, but with a lower profile gas block, and throw a G MLOK rail on it.
    That sounds sensible to me. Throw an acog on it, teach them how to use said weapon up close and further out.

    Or......finaly get the laser guns and plasma blasters going.

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPM View Post
    I’m more concerned with the lack of willingness to attack into the ambush, close with and destroy the enemy in close combat. It seems the SOP is to take pot shots at one another for 30 minutes until a AWT shows up and sprays a girls school with 30mm.

    I’m honestly appalled at the risk adverse nature of current big military leaders. I saw it first hand with my battalion in Iraq, and it’s only become worse.
    I don't disagree with your concerns but we're talking about Afghanistan here. Most engagements are at 300-500+ meters, often with a terrain obstacle like a canal between you and the enemy. The enemy likes to engage from a position where they've emplaced a number of IEDs just hoping you're dumb enough to try to "close with and destroy" them as they string you along.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    And how much does a kitted up M4 weighs with a bipod? Do you think all troops are going to have a bipod? The slings weigh the same and the extra inch and a half of barrel weighs more.
    In the USMC, the M27 comes standard with a harris bipod and grip-pods are a general issue item. AFAIK in the Army a bipod is not in the MTOE, its either unit or individual purchase so its whatever they buy.

    The M27's weight comes from the heavy barrel, the piston assembly and the heavy rail system. Its M27 barrel has a thicker profile than even the M4 SOCOM barrel. The extra capability of the M27 is paid for in pounds.

    1168 is right, you can pretty much do 95% of the M27 does without the extra weight with something like the URG-I.

  10. #40
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    The M27's stated purpose was to replace the SAW with an IAR, so you replace a 22 lb loaded weapon with a 13 lb, sounds like a win to me. Now the Gunny conspiracy to arm all infantry with them is another subject, but will they have all the dodads like the IAR types? And from the H&K data sheet the M27 weight rifle only is 8.16 lbs vs what for a rifle only M4A1 7.5 lbs?
    Last edited by mack7.62; 07-21-18 at 19:13.
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