MAC meters the new OSS can

[mig1nc]

I don't doubt any of that. I understand sampling. I get what you are saying. I live that world.

That said, it is worth noting that his readings at any given point were very close to each other taking 5 samples at any point. Not all over the place.

I'm not defending his equipment. It is what it is. But I don't think there data should be completely dismissed out of hand. You have to be sure and understand that the sample rate isn't high enough be sure to catch the peak. But in this case it is extremely consistent in each test, which does speak to a certain extent.





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[BigWaylon]

For anybody that wants to read the discussion that involves the industry experts (which absolutely doesn't include me), here are some of the ARF threads:

MAC-puts-the-new-OSS-HX-QD762-and-the-older-Helix-556-on-the-meter

Larson-Davis-SoundTrack-LxT-Meter

And this one from a couple months ago:

Amazing-AR15-Silencer-The-AAC-SR5

Guys from Dead Air, TBAC, Griffin, Silencer Shop, Hansohn Brothers, several YouTube guys and Dr Dater provided a lot of really interesting information.

[SteyrAUG]

But they are relative measurements. Maybe not actual but they are relative to other measuments using the same equipment and to other suppressors.

Actually not really. I once had some of the folks at Gemtech explain to me all of the variable required for meaningful data and it was pretty astonishing. On other occasions I watched another company rep demonstrate how he could get completely different results with the same rifle / suppressor combination using the same meter and how those results can easily be skewed if they aren't taken under the proper conditions.

Bottom line is anything "outdoors" is almost meaningless.

This is one reason Gemtech stopped advertising db levels because it was so easy to obtain better db levels by not adhering to the same environmental conditions, and of course that is what their competitors did.

[mig1nc]

Actually not really. I once had some of the folks at Gemtech explain to me all of the variable required for meaningful data and it was pretty astonishing. On other occasions I watched another company rep demonstrate how he could get completely different results with the same rifle / suppressor combination using the same meter and how those results can easily be skewed if they aren't taken under the proper conditions.

Bottom line is anything "outdoors" is almost meaningless.

This is one reason Gemtech stopped advertising db levels because it was so easy to obtain better db levels by not adhering to the same environmental conditions, and of course that is what their competitors did.

That's a good point too. My wife and I were shopping for a new dishwasher last weekend and Bosch were claiming 44db, so I explained about ambient sounds levels and such.

I did buy the Bosch...I liked it.

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[zimmer]

This is an interesting thread, and Ive skimmed the arfcom threads too before I pulled up the MAC video and watched it.
Full Disclosure: Im NOT an acoustic engineer, nor any engineer for that matter. Im not an expert on Suppressors at all...but what I can relate is my experience over the past few years shooting and selling to LE departments through live fire evals.

In Minnesota, we've only had access to suppressors for the past 3 years, so I came into this side-business generally ignorant to how they work, the brands currently available, the differences between brands, and most importantly what suppressors do for (and to) a functioning rifle. We learned literally from scratch - buying and shooting and seeing what LE departments purchased after trying many options. while that method beats the hell out of watching youtube and debating online, unfortunately its not an ideal way to learn these things if you want to save money.
Thats why I suppose people chase down the db reduction and meter questions...because they simply dont have the access to multiple suppressors on similar rifles in order to make a more realistic assessment.

This is what we've seen over the past 10+ months we've had the new OSS lineup:
1. The LE departments who've trialed them during head to head, live fire evals HAVE ALL selected OSS as their suppressor.
2. Not one time has any officer or shooter said "holy shit thats loud!" when OSS is on the end of our rifles (vs the other brands). The tone sometimes sounds different, but really we dont see any swat teams at all separating these eval suppressors by db reduction. from what we observe, they all work to suppress a rifle.
4. blowback and the ability to function without weapons mods ends up being the top suppressor considerations for LE teams that we have worked with.

I like a number of suppressors (we sell them all), and every major brand has its following out there and most seem to produce solid products. I dont care what you have, or what you buy. I have been surprised by some of the reaction to OSS online. Suppressor owners are TRIBAL - even moreso than owners of optics, rifles, handguns, cars, etc. I suppose this might come from the cost, wait, and other peculiarities associated with NFA purchases.

[SteyrAUG]

Here's what I've seen with 10+ years selling suppressors to law enforcement.

1. The procurement officer / armorer makes a recommendation and that is the one they buy for everyone.
2. Ease of installation / removal and maintenance are bigger factors than db ratings. Between door breaching, screaming orders and instructions and everything else related to special applications where suppressed weapons are brought into play, it's going to be noisy.
3. Agencies receive approval for a manufacturer brand PRIOR to purchase and they buy that one because that is what they were approved to buy.
4. Price is king, if budget suppressor X is $10 cheaper than top tier suppressor Y, everyone is getting X. Even if one guy is willing to pay the difference for Y, he usually won't be allowed to because suppressors are still mysterious and magical to LE agencies so they want everyone to have the exact same kind of light sabre.
5. By the time the newest cutting edge, high performance suppressor is approved for purchase it's no longer the newest cutting edge technology so really they are better off going to "proven and reliable." And if an agency buys suppressors, they probably won't consider doing it again for another 10 years.

[zimmer]

Here's what I've seen with 10+ years selling suppressors to law enforcement.
1. The procurement officer / armorer makes a recommendation and that is the one they buy for everyone.

2. Ease of installation / removal and maintenance are bigger factors than db ratings. Between door breaching, screaming orders and instructions and everything else related to special applications where suppressed weapons are brought into play, it's going to be noisy.
3. Agencies receive approval for a manufacturer brand PRIOR to purchase and they buy that one because that is what they were approved to buy.
4. Price is king, if budget suppressor X is $10 cheaper than top tier suppressor Y, everyone is getting X. Even if one guy is willing to pay the difference for Y, he usually won't be allowed to because suppressors are still mysterious and magical to LE agencies so they want everyone to have the exact same kind of light sabre.
5. By the time the newest cutting edge, high performance suppressor is approved for purchase it's no longer the newest cutting edge technology so really they are better off going to "proven and reliable." And if an agency buys suppressors, they probably won't consider doing it again for another 10 years.

You've clearly been in this area longer than we have, and for the most part we see the same things. Youre probably dealing with much larger department sales for suppressors as well and that could explain any difference.
All of our deals have been with SWAT teams only (not large scale departments) - average suppressor package is between 6 and 30. Our largest was 70, and just this week we've gotten the "green light" for an order for 2, and order for 15, and next week should see an order for a team between 12-24 (depending on what direction they go for rifles and what that leaves for budget). So our deals are all over the place for numbers, and can be just suppressors, rifles, optics, or all 3.
I agree that teams do not replace equipment very often, and thats part of our push to get in front of them with all our demo gear - if youre making a decision that you have to live with for the next decade, do everything now to try and get the decision right the first time. about 1/4 of the department teams we've sold to already have some suppressors, but they either aren't used or are over 10 years old and they want something new.

as you mentioned, the process moves slow. The timeline for us is all over the place, but since this is a part time gig, we are pretty well positioned to take advantage of a "January/March Eval - July Decision - November Purchase" type of cycle. many of our deals take on average 4 months from the first evaluation to the product delivery and payment. it really helps that usually the suppressor/SBR transfers only take 48-72 hours for approval with LE.

small group LE decisions are the norm with what we are doing. I'm not saying everyone gets a vote - with our 70 suppressor order, we cycled through about 40 shooters in 2 evals, but the final decision was made by the Warrant Team Leaders, the Sniper Team Leader, and the Quartermaster (who is also a sniper on the team) - so essentially around 6-7 officers.
here is a pic of one such eval:

IMG_0418.jpg
Notice the evaluation sheets at each bay. This team requested we provide an ID of the platform (rifle and suppressor) and had each team member fill out a comment for what they liked or didn't like. they went with 15 Daniel Defense MK18s and OSS 556ks. Most teams dont go to this level of participation, but they all vote or discuss the results of the equipment they that evaluate.

No doubt the Budget is the Budget, and lowest bidder wins - and I see SIG in particular being very aggressive with their direct thread offers to departments. about 3/4 of the teams let us know what their budget is per shooter and what their goals are (suppressor only, etc). Also, many of our deals have "evolved" from start to finish based on the evals and the teams end up with something different than what they thought coming in.

[zimmer]

Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread - I forget its not a text chain/email with another person and I realize I went off the rails making a simple point that probably most already agree with:
DBs aren't the only factor in evaluating a suppressor, and apparently a lot of very smart people agree that its hard to even accurately measure the DBs on any given brand.

[BigWaylon]

Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread - I forget its not a text chain/email with another person and I realize I went off the rails making a simple point that probably most already agree with:
DBs aren't the only factor in evaluating a suppressor, and apparently a lot of very smart people agree that its hard to even accurately measure the DBs on any given brand.

Once I got the opportunity to shoot my F1 cans against some of my commercial cans thanks to the guys at Rugged, I reallynquit worry about the dB specs. If it sounds good, and doesn't blow crap in my face, I buy it...regardless of what the meter says.

[SteyrAUG]

Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread - I forget its not a text chain/email with another person and I realize I went off the rails making a simple point that probably most already agree with:
DBs aren't the only factor in evaluating a suppressor, and apparently a lot of very smart people agree that its hard to even accurately measure the DBs on any given brand.

This probably cannot be stressed enough.

These aren't NFA collectors buying this stuff, it's on the taxpayer dime and PD budget, so it's going to get banged around a LOT. As a example of how PD's treat their equipment I once saw 12 five gallon buckets of mineral spirits that had two MP5s barrel down in them for a "soak." They'd leave them in for an hour, shake them dry and run a short burst and then call them "clean."

Some departments buy whatever they hear Delta / Seals are using if they have the budget for Surefire cans. But I still sell a bunch of HALOs because of the coupler setup being so simple and flexible.

I try and keep out in front with the latest / greatest of the reliable manufacturers but it's a lot like selling computers, by the time you actually get them in the store it's almost old tech. I've actually felt bad a few times because I recommended something that "at the time" was one of the best options only to have some new product debut in the meantime and they come back to me wondering why they didn't go with that one.

At least with the solid cans, regardless of db level, I know they will still be working in 10 years and the manufacturer will still likely service them.