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Thread: Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

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    Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

    Each of these tests took place at different military installations and with varying numbers of participants.

    The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
    • Beretta
    • Kalashnikov
    • Sig Sauer
    • Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
    • CZ
    • PWS
    • FN Herstal
    • LWRC Intl
    • Zastava Arms
    • Anderson Manufacturing Inc
    • HK
    • Hanwha
    • Denel Land Systems
    • Colt
    • Steyr
    • Armalite



    On to the trial…

    The weapons trial consisted of numerous tests; below is a partial list:
    • Technical briefings
    • Hot chamber cook-off
    • Iron sight accuracy
    • Optics accuracy
    • Penetration
    • Hot and cold environmental chambers
    • Interchangeability
    • Endurance
    • Pluff mud
    • Sand test
    • Mud


    *Highlights of the test results.

    I. Pluff Mud Immersion Test, (uncontrolled mud test, tidal/coastal natural area mud testing). Condition of the rifles; bolt closed on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted and the muzzle capped. The SSG took the rifles into the tidal pluff mud and rolled them in the mud until they were completely covered.

    Findings. MKE and CZ rifles along with Serbian and Chinese AK’s were able to get one or two rounds fired before jamming. The US weapon wouldn’t even chamber a round. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.



    II. Sand Test. Condition of the weapons, the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. The weapons were buried under two feet of sand and left to bake for one hour. The temperature was 56°C (133°F) in the shade. After the requisite bake, the weapons were dug up and test fired.

    Findings. The US weapon wouldn’t fire. The CZ and MKE rifle along with the Serbian and Chinese AKs were able to get one or two round fired before jamming. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.



    III. Extreme Climate Test, Hot. 360 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at +60°C (140°F) for 12 hours.
    *Note, this particular testing results regarding the US weapons doesn't make sense to me- as to what exactly happened, it doesn't say.

    Findings. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons, all of which had the bolt catch fall out of the weapon during testing and one of which launched the muzzle break down range.



    IV. Extreme Climate Test, Cold. 720 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at -40°C (-40°F). Two cycles of 120x rounds fired from each weapon.

    Findings. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons which would not chamber a round and did not fire a single shot.



    V. Mud Test 2, (controlled testing environment). Condition of the weapons; the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered.

    Findings. Only the Chinese and Russian AK’s fired. The Chinese AK had a single jam and once cleared continued to run. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.



    Final Results. However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles.


    http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16...assault-rifle/



    Kalashnikov AK-103 firing after mud submersion test, it's the only one that functioned during this phase of testing.

    *Personal note, depending on how thick the mud is I think that it didn't interfere with the bolt carrier being able to close such as the thicker mud found on the Inrange you tube test video. However thinner mud would penetrate some of the closed system designs like the AR weapons. However the Swamp Test by Regular Guy on youtube showed similar results between the AR/AK/Tavor when only the AK variant functioned and obviously given the swamp like water- all the weapons were compromised. Perhaps the water blew the gas tubes on the AR's and is the reason they failed both the Pakistan military torture testing as well as Regular Guy's swamp test. In my opinion however, a weapon should handle firing submerged or partially submerged in water, basically pass an over the beach style test but others might feel differently.





    Obviously third world countries do a little less scientific testing yet their findings are completely different than our own. One thing of note, the Pakistan military requires the weapons manufacturers to submit their rifles along with a fee to be tested directly under supervision of the Pakistan military rather than submitting independent controlled lab testing results. I think this does one thing, it eliminates the potential for rigged testing procedures such as might be found from a lab that is being paid directly by a manufacturer. However just seeing what happens to various weapons that are dunked into muddy/sandy water via youtube torture test videos- I personally trust the Pakistan military testing results. The AK overall, is probably the most reliable rifle available on the market but obviously is a dated design that isn't the most ergonomic nor accurate. However for the Pakistan military needs or most budget minded military needs- is perfect for a low maintenance weapon. I would however wonder if Kalashnikov submitted weapons with over sized gas ports to increase reliability since the other AK variants didn't perform as well. Another thing that struck me as different was the "interchangeability" test, basically taking weapons apart and re-assembling them from other weapons- somehow the AK's passed this portion which means they have really tightened up their manufacturing procedures. Either way, the Russian AK passed the torture testing elements that failed the other more modern designs for this particular test.


    7n6
    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 08-01-18 at 13:32.

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    7N6. I see how you love to bag on the SCAR, however, what does the Conclusion of that article say??

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    Quote Originally Posted by PNorris View Post
    7N6. I see how you love to bag on the SCAR, however, what does the Conclusion of that article say??
    Says they liked the SCAR, contracted it but decided to buy AK's instead due to cost. However there is no mention on how the SCAR actually performed, just that the AK was the ONLY rifle to pass the mud tests, sand tests etc. Probably goes along with what everyone does, wants the newest most modern weapon to succeed- not the seventy year old relic.
    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 08-01-18 at 13:09.

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    http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16...assault-rifle/

    Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.

    Hmmm, perhaps if FN took your advice it would've been flawless : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by PNorris View Post
    http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16...assault-rifle/

    Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.

    Hmmm, perhaps if FN took your advice it would've been flawless : )

    The only weapon that passed the torture testing segments "without issue" was the AK-103 Kalashnikov having passed the first mud test, the sand test, the second mud test and the hot/cold environmental tests. Perhaps they picked the SCAR for contracting which probably had more to do with it being the most modern design with modern ergonomics but perhaps it didn't do well during the tests or as mentioned was to expensive- so they chose the AK variant. There's actually not one mention that the SCAR passed the actual torture testing segments "without issue" like the AK 103 did. The writer of the article isn't that organized and should have broke each segment down more thoroughly.

    "However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive."

    So who knows, maybe they just chose the rifle that ran the best but cost the least- which appears to be the case.


    7n6
    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 08-01-18 at 13:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7n6 View Post
    "However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive."
    Maybe the only "issue" with the SCAR was the cost. Isn't the rule of thumb to go with whatever option will complete the given task at the lowest possible cost? I.e., maybe the SCAR and AK 103 were on par with one another, but the difference in performance between the two was so negligible that it wouldn't justify the additional cost for the SCAR.

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    Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7n6 View Post
    Says they liked the SCAR, contracted it but decided to buy AK's instead due to cost. However there is no mention on how the SCAR actually performed, just that the AK was the ONLY rifle to pass the mud tests, sand tests etc. Probably goes along with what everyone does, wants the newest most modern weapon to succeed- not the seventy year old relic.
    AK nut hugging aside why does anyone actually care what Pakistan does and how does that correspondingly validate the platform ?

    AKs are lame


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    Quote Originally Posted by 7n6 View Post
    The extreme testing is relevant because the world consists of extreme environments.
    Not really. The rifle merely has to function in environments that people can function in. Humans tend to be incapacitated when they fall 30 meters, for example. So the value added by being able to work after a 30 meter drop is not worth the weight added. I’ve carried and fired the M4 and M16 series in all sorts of adverse conditions, and I’m just not that impressed by the AK. I even own a couple of samples (know thine enemy). We get it, you like pistons and op-rods. But...

    The Pakistani mil choosing to procure a weapon does not make it awesome. Remember, these are the same dirtbags that either gave safe harbor to bin Laden, or somehow didn’t know he was hanging out a few blocks from military institution. They deserve garbage rifles.
    RLTW

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    "Quote Originally Posted by 7n6
    The extreme testing is relevant because the world consists of extreme environments."

    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Not really. The rifle merely has to function in environments that people can function in. Humans tend to be incapacitated when they fall 30 meters, for example. So the value added by being able to work after a 30 meter drop is not worth the weight added. I’ve carried and fired the M4 and M16 series in all sorts of adverse conditions, and I’m just not that impressed by the AK. I even own a couple of samples (know thine enemy). We get it, you like pistons and op-rods. But...

    The Pakistani mil choosing to procure a weapon does not make it awesome. Remember, these are the same dirtbags that either gave safe harbor to bin Laden, or somehow didn’t know he was hanging out a few blocks from military institution. They deserve garbage rifles.
    Do you mean that the world does not have extreme conditions?

    Because that is false. From below zero winters to 120F deserts and everything in between exists; think of Russia, Middle East, anywhere with extreme winters, rainforests, etc. The rifle must be able to function in some way and reliably in a specific level in such conditions.

    The rifle drop-test is important; for example if you drop your weapon from a second story rooftop by accident (not you falling down with the rifle), the rifle needs to survive that torture. Same if you fall into a large puddle of mud or a beach/desert, whatever. Or maybe if your rifle falls accidentally while you're on patrol in the mountains of Afghanistan... you get the point. Its not just about civilian situations, because some of us probably baby our rifles or make them safe queens, but in reality many operators/soldiers do put these weapons under tremendous abuse.

    Not advocating for the AK platform here, but having owned many types of rifles including AR15 and AK47, it is quite known that both have their merits in different geographical locations and past wars/conflicts. I love both the AR and AK platform. Lets not turn this into an AR vs AK thread I hope.
    Last edited by JusticeM4; 08-10-18 at 08:52.

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    The real takeaway on this thread is that a SAN Swiss SG55X modernization to fall in line with M4-style ergonomics would be pretty tits.

    Why ain't you guys starting a go-fund-me for that? The world (I!) needs it!

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