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Thread: Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7n6 View Post
    He got 5% less on his overall score with the AK than the previous year using an AR.

    Went from a 90% division score in the AR crowd to a 68% division score in the AK crowd- sounds like weapons familiarity issues.
    There was no AK division at HAH. He was one of maybe two or three shooters with an AK. And I'd bet they did a lot worse than he did - and he was using a rifle that's mechanical accuracy severely harmed his ability to compete.

    As Phagan pointed out: During the close portions he (an experienced action competitor who has constantly and consistently run similar rifles and handguns for years) and Kasarda (a guy who has admitted on camera that he can't shoot as often as he'd like and his shooting ability has suffered as a result, and he frequently runs weird and unusual guns) were neck-and-neck. Once the distances increased, Phagan was able to blow Kasarda out of the water. And this is with Kasarda running an AK set-up to be used in multigun competition.

    Kasarda's numbers from HAH2017 were established using a rifle intended to use lightweight, modern materials, to give a lightweight, practical, reliable rifle. Not a competition rifle, not a military rifle, but a defensive rifle made with advanced materials: Carbon fiber handguard, polymer lower, lighter-than-pencil barrel, flash hider. No brake, no tuning for minimal recoil, no LPVO (unlike the AK which had all of these things). Just a red dot. Which was mentioned as being less than ideal for the long-range targets at HAH.

    Quote Originally Posted by docsherm View Post
    Here is the finally on this conversation:

    The AK is a Piece of SHIT. Period. No more arguments about it. It was created to be made by idiots, used by idiots, and maintained by idiots. That is what 99% of the Soviets Army was, conscripts that had no clue. And guess what? They exported it to all of their followers around the world that were also..... wait for it...... IDIOTS.

    That being said.... If you want one to play with, great. Toys are awesome to have. As a true fighting weapon? Rethink some life choices and get quality over simplicity.


    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    The AK series has always been a reliable contender, and it's evolved into a sustainable rifle remarkably. It's service life as a primary weapon for a superpower should have ended in the late 1980s, but the 100 series has proven more adaptable than anyone ever imagined and it has remained relevant, especially in a county where the "quantity has a quality of it's own" philosophy is still observed.
    The service life of the AK as a primary service weapon for a superpower ended not long after the 1980s: 26 December 1991. Russia ceased to be a superpower when the Soviet Union collapsed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooter76 View Post
    Pakistan aside, you do realize that only 8 rifles took part in the trials and of those at least 3, and probably as many as 5 (since NZ would probably be looking not to spend an exuberant amount on new rifles), were AR15 type rifles... The odds were in the platforms favor.
    Beretta ARX-160
    CZ 805/805 BREN
    Colt Canada C8
    FN Herstal SCAR-L
    Steyr AUG A3
    XTEK/SiG Sauer MCX or 516?
    H&K HK416
    LMT

    That's two DI ARs. Everything else is a short-stroke piston. Even if the Steyr submission was their fifteen-pound HK416 knock-off. SiG is unlikely to have submitted the M400, because that's not their premier weapon system and it's frankly a pricepoint gun, something to sell to places like Georgia, not to wealthy, Western nations like little New Zealand.

    And if the DI AR was such a stinky piece of shit, everybody who put one into the competition would have been eliminated and one of the short-stroke options would have been selected. This didn't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    When the US Army adopted the M9 they required a double strike capability. I think we've evolved handguns enough where designs with better reliability and better accuracy exist so the M9 will probably be put out to pasture when the military no longer has a huge supply of serviceable weapons.
    Beretta's last batch of M9s exceeded the US Army's reliability requirements for the M17/M18 by a very, very wide margin, as I recall. And the 92 has a well-deserved reputation for being accurate.

    Also: Efforts to unseat the AR-15/M16 started in the 1960s, with the HK33. Hell, Eugene Stoner and ArmaLite both started trying to unseat the weapon almost as soon as the XM16E1 was provisionally adopted for US airmobile and special forces in Vietnam. And none of them have succeeded. Maybe these tests are totally bullshit and don't represent actual real-world conditions and that's why the guys on the sharp-end of the spear keep picking AR-15s over everything else that's available.
    Last edited by MountainRaven; Today at 14:43.
    " For Augustus, and after him Tiberius, more interested in establishing and increasing their own power than in promoting the public good, began to disarm the Roman people (in order to make them more passive under their tyranny)[.] "
    - Niccolò Machiavelli, 1520 -
    Dell'Arte della Guerra (The Art of War)

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    The service life of the AK as a primary service weapon for a superpower ended not long after the 1980s: 26 December 1991. Russia ceased to be a superpower when the Soviet Union collapsed.
    That depends on if you consider China a superpower. I don't (yet) but they probably will be in the next 20 years as they increase their position and we continue to lose ground... The QBZ-95 is essentially a bullpup configured AK.


    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post

    Beretta ARX-160
    CZ 805/805 BREN
    Colt Canada C8
    FN Herstal SCAR-L
    Steyr AUG A3
    XTEK/SiG Sauer MCX or 516?
    H&K HK416
    LMT

    That's two DI ARs. Everything else is a short-stroke piston. Even if the Steyr submission was their fifteen-pound HK416 knock-off. SiG is unlikely to have submitted the M400, because that's not their premier weapon system and it's frankly a pricepoint gun, something to sell to places like Georgia, not to wealthy, Western nations like little New Zealand.
    The article listed did not state what rifles were submitted for testing, and a gas piston driven AR system is still an AR system. So your list really means nothing. In the end at least half the rifles tested were AR15 platforms... The odds were heavily in its favor.

    And whether its their premier system or not doesn't necessarily factor. Nations will weigh cost to equip heavily when selecting a general issue weapon. If FN or any other manufacturer thinks they have a better chance of getting selected if they submit something other than their premier weapon they're going to do so.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusader377 View Post
    You claim that the M4 can't pass an over the beach test but yet the experts in over the beach operations like the USMC, U.S. Navy SEALs, British SBS, British Royal Marines, etc.. have used AR platform weapons for decades in many cases. So using your logic those organizations must be ignorant for using a rifle that can't do over the beach operations.

    Also back to the debris question, the solution to keeping a gun running in adverse conditions is keeping the operating system as well sealed. No matter what the platform, eventually debris in the internals of the rifle is eventually going the cause the rifle to fail.

    I'm not claiming anything, the M4 cannot pass an over the beach test submerged or partially submerged due to the gas tube. A 416 can pass an over the beach test due to the piston. A modified 416 is actually capable of firing underwater like the AK and SIG. However clearances for debris on the AR based weapons is still an issue.

    Techno music helps potatoes understand.

    Last edited by 7n6; Today at 16:46.

  4. #184
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    Modified 416 firing underwater- getting close to AK and SIG reliability.

    Now just add more room for debris and you have an AK reliable AR based weapon system.


  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five_Point_Five_Six View Post
    The AR is a product of the 50's. So what. It was adapted, changed, and improved over the years. The whole "has to be altered to the point that it's no longer an AK" thing is ridiculous. Is the modern AR not an AR any longer because it's been altered so much since it's first design?
    So much truth in this post.

    The AK and AR have twelve years between their developments. Eugene Stone totally designed his rifle in the 50's to accept grenade launchers, white lights, IR lights/lasers, RDS's, Master Keys, and lightsabers don't you know.




    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    It's 2018 and you guys are arguing about a trigger guard are you guys fking serious?
    It's 2018 and we have people still arguing in an AR vs. AK debate. What's next Ford vs. Chevy, .45 vs. 9mm, the 1972 Miami Dolphins vs. ???? . . .




    Quote Originally Posted by Sooter76 View Post
    Are you serious!? It's no more a work around than the picatinny rails found on modern military M4's. Neither platform was designed with them in mind but they were both adapted to it. The side rail for the AK works and has proven to be a repeatable zero. There are multiple options that provide rails for an AK from the muzzle to the end of the receiver, some of which actually lighten the rifle.

    Saying the M4 is ready out of the box ignores all of the changes made to the original platform. And it ignores that you can also get an AK that has those same changes made to it 'out of the box'.
    A metric shit ton of truth in this post as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by crusader377 View Post
    Poland is another example, their regular Army uses a modernized AK while their Special Forces are using the M4. You can find multiple examples of this worldwide and in every occasion that a military is using both the AK and AR platform, the AR is always the rifle issued to the better troops of the respective countries military. It is never the reverse in which AKs are issued to the best troops while ARs are issued to troops of lower readiness. I think that is pretty good evidence that the M16/M4 is the better of the two rifles.
    How much of that has got to do with the fact that the US has written the book on modern warfare and all those foreign SOF units need to hang mission specific equipment off of their rifles to achieve SOF specific objectives? Why are these nations not issuing M4's service wide and not just to their SOF units? IMHO it comes down to cost and the fact that their conventional forces don't require such capabilities on their rifles.

    Our closest allies; the UK issues their conventional troops the L85 IW bullpup, their SOF units get Colt Canada C8 carbines (a US M4 variant), Aussies issue their conventional troops the STG-77 bullpup while their SOF units get Colt M4's (possibly Colt Canada C8's I forget which), the Kiwis issue their conventional forces the F88 Steyr bullpup and their SOF units like the Aussies get Colt M4's and or Colt Canada C8's.
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