Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

[SteyrAUG]

The AR is worse than what? An AK or a Sig550? Even left handed, it's easy to manipulate an AR, including the safety. It's easier to use a non-ambi AR left handed than an an AK right handed. You don't need an ambi bolt catch if there isn't a bolt catch. I'll loan you $20 for an ambi selector.

I'm six feet tall, and of average size. If I can't reach the safety on 550, most probably can't.. like a (legacy) HK.

At some point we are long past, it becomes about an emotional investment, and not about practicality.

Honestly I haven't met anyone who can't reach the safety on a SIG. It's nothing like HKs or AKs. I mean it's right there above the pistol grip. I know girls that can reach it.

I think later tonight I'm actually getting into the safe and breaking out the calipers.

[RHINOWSO]

The Pakistan military, along with several youtube personalities, conducted very similar over the beach/swamp tests and the results are the same. Previous extreme cold weather tests shows issues with the design as well. Now a military trial tests mirror results of what backyard testers are finding. Simply these tests may have exposed flaws that need correction especially in light that our enemies weapons pass those very same tests.

(1) Not interested in what the Paki's do militarily.

(2) While small arms should be continually improved, I don't think any of the youtube identified "deficiencies" amount to any measurable change to future conflicts. If our make or break deciding factor is weapon reliability in outrageous conditions, we already lost.

(3) Our biggest LIMFAC in F*&king up the enemy is a three letter acronym - R.O.E., Rules Of Engagement.

[hotrodder636]

I am intrigued by this whole discussion...kinda like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

I have ARs, AKs, and Sig (Swiss) and find that each has pros and cons. I wouldn’t say one is better overall but i prefer a different gun for different purposes. I think something along those lines has been said multiple times.

As for the question of why isn't anyone trying to make a better mousetrap? When it comes to engineering just about anything, you have to do it within a set of boundaries...you can’t “what if” everything and make something fit every need, just doesnt work like that.

[jesuvuah]

I figured he'd do much worse than he did, figured maybe it was just his weapons familiarity.However not one of the modern rifles passed the extreme environmental tests other than the AK. Manufacturers are designing rifles based on ergonomics rather than trying to improve actual reliability which is where their focus should be.


7n6

I think manufacturers are making the rifles that their buyers want. A lot of the newer designs are being made to meet the requests of different military programs. If it wasn't for the scar program, would we have ever got the fn scar? Who knows?

I guess if you want this rifle you are dreaming up, you need to create a demand for it, or convince the military they need it. I still don't know if the usmc going with the 416 is a move forward or vackwards.

But as I stated before, I was a huge ak koolaid drinker for years, but eventually, I was willing to give up a little in the reliability department for better ergos, modularity, accuracy, weight....not to mention, in the US, the AR is the easy button, and very affordable. I wish I would have kept my mak90 though.

Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

[eodinert]

Honestly I haven't met anyone who can't reach the safety on a SIG. It's nothing like HKs or AKs. I mean it's right there above the pistol grip. I know girls that can reach it.

I think later tonight I'm actually getting into the safe and breaking out the calipers.

I'll save you some trouble.

With a normal firing position, my knuckle is right under the joint between the receiver and stock adapter. The receiver is full width at that point. The width of the receiver blocks access to the selector.

20180813_231647.jpg

20180813_231701.jpg

To hit the selector with any kind of authority, I have to rotate my grip... just like an HK. ..and yeah, I can hold it in front of myself and position my hand so that I can flip it back and forth no problem. Its from the firing position that the problem exists, and it's harder to rotate your hand to engage the selector.

Then, put the Sig down, grab and AR, and do the same thing. The AR dominates on selector access, the narrowness of the lower at that point contributing greatly.

20180813_231715.jpg

Don't know why the pics are showing upside down, but you can probably figure out what I'm talking about.

[SteyrAUG]

I'll save you some trouble.

With a normal firing position, my knuckle is right under the joint between the receiver and stock adapter. The receiver is full width at that point. The width of the receiver blocks access to the selector.

20180813_231647.jpg

20180813_231701.jpg

To hit the selector with any kind of authority, I have to rotate my grip... just like an HK. ..and yeah, I can hold it in front of myself and position my hand so that I can flip it back and forth no problem. Its from the firing position that the problem exists, and it's harder to rotate your hand to engage the selector.

Then, put the Sig down, grab and AR, and do the same thing. The AR dominates on selector access, the narrowness of the lower at that point contributing greatly.

20180813_231715.jpg

Don't know why the pics are showing upside down, but you can probably figure out what I'm talking about.

Dude you got wonky thumbs or something. I just fonzie my thumb straight up and it's right there. I don't need to change my grip at all. Of course I grew up on FALs and 91s so SIGs and just about everything else are simple to me.

[eodinert]

..well this is interesting.

I measured from the web of the grip, to the part of the selector I engage with my thumb. The measurement between the Sig and the HK were almost identical. You can see on the caliper, it's just under 38mm.

20180813_234621.jpg

20180813_234555.jpg

But when you measure the thickness of the weapon at the point your hand wraps around it, the Sig is a lot thicker. Here you can see the Sig is almost 40mm thick:

20180813_234658.jpg

Where the HK is just over 30mm.

20180813_234639.jpg


...and for comparison, here is the 'reach' on the AR, which is nearly half the reach of the other two:

20180813_234745.jpg

...and I can only attach five pictures to this post, so rather than attaching another picture of an AR showing the thickness to be about 23mm thick, I'll just tell you that it's 1/3rd narrower than the HK, and not too far from 50% narrower than the Sig.... and that's why it kicks ass (and no part of the receiver blocks my thumb from sweeping the safety).

If the 'safe' position on the Sig was at the 2 o'clock position like on the HK, it would suck even more than the HK... but since they put it the 3 o'clock position, it's a slightly different, yet equal suckage, requiring me to move my hand from the firing position to engage the safety.

[Tspeis]

I still don't know how the 416 would fair in the same extreme environmental tests that failed the other manufacturers AR18 hybrids as mentioned in the original article. I have a feeling the results would be the same and this is all starting to reveal weaknesses in the underlying designs with these types of testing. I think the overall failures have more to do with clearances for debris than anything else though the piston might help in say an extremely cold environment requiring less lube to overcome carbon built up in the receiver.

I see HK on the list. Any idea what they submitted?


Tspeis

[RetroRevolver77]

I am intrigued by this whole discussion...kinda like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

I have ARs, AKs, and Sig (Swiss) and find that each has pros and cons. I wouldn’t say one is better overall but i prefer a different gun for different purposes. I think something along those lines has been said multiple times.

As for the question of why isn't anyone trying to make a better mousetrap? When it comes to engineering just about anything, you have to do it within a set of boundaries...you can’t “what if” everything and make something fit every need, just doesnt work like that.

Well the fact is we can't ignore these tests. It's not an option to allow the Europeans, especially Russians- to have more reliable weaponry. We've fought a couple wars there already, large scale wars in extremely bad conditions. I think we should pursue building a modernized reliable rifle. Maybe not for everyone in the military but at least for the infantry. Seems the USMC is trying to accomplish this already but not sure of just going to the 416 types are enough, might need something more advanced.

I see HK on the list. Any idea what they submitted?


Tspeis

From what I understand, some companies submitted their internal testing results and data direct. Others participated in the actual military testing trials. I do not know which HK rifle they submitted.



7n6

[georgeib]

I see HK on the list. Any idea what they submitted?


Tspeis

Well the fact is we can't ignore these tests. It's not an option to allow the Europeans, especially Russians- to have more reliable weaponry. We've fought a couple wars there already, large scale wars in extremely bad conditions. I think we should pursue building a modernized reliable rifle. Maybe not for everyone in the military but at least for the infantry. Seems the USMC is trying to accomplish this already but not sure of just going to the 416 types are enough, might need something more advanced.






From what I understand, some companies submitted their internal testing results and data direct. Others participated in the actual military testing trials. I do not know which HK rifle they submitted.



7n6

It's difficult to imagine that HK could have a submitted a competitive entry to Pakistan. They probably got 4 AKs for the price of one HK.