Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

[RetroRevolver77]

I can get behind that. I’ve said before that, if you give a Ranger Battalion or Infantry Marine Battalion AK74’s and a few months to work with them, the outcome of battle would not likely be different. SOF Truth #1: Humans are more important than hardware.

However, to say that the Kalashnikov is BETTER, because you can chuck it off an overpass, or bury it in gloop, or put a PB&J under the top cover, or that the M4 doesn’t work, is just ....silly. And I am not confident that this “trial” was conducted objectively and without bias.

The tests covered in the original post were essentially over the beach tests, a sand test, and some kind of mud hole test where one of the AK variants passed. As far as the extreme cold weather tests, they poured water over the action to let the water freeze, they overlubed them, even walked them out from warm environments to create condensation to let that freeze- again, only the AK variants passed. The extreme cold weather test being much older needs to be re-evaluated today with updated results. Either way, the results are what they are. I'd like to see the creation of a modern rifle that is equally reliable and durable as an AK but with superior ergonomics.


7n6

[SteyrAUG]

Actually it is, and yes it's on every M4/M16 ever issued- takes a bullet tip to activate

By that logic a bullet button is a true magazine release.

[jesuvuah]

By that logic a bullet button is a true magazine release.

Really? Your comparing mag changes, something you have to constantly do, to something that most never have to do? What about all the gas blocks that you have to use a bullet or similar object to adjust

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[MountainRaven]

AKs are great, except when they aren't.

[SteyrAUG]

Really? Your comparing mag changes, something you have to constantly do, to something that most never have to do? What about all the gas blocks that you have to use a bullet or similar object to adjust

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No I'm comparing a true folding trigger guard to one that requires a bullet to use and even then it's still a crappy stopgap. Trust me if it's frooking cold out and you need to move the trigger guard out of the way so you can shoot at people without taking your mittens off, the need to punch a very small detent with a bullet nose sucks ALMOST as bad as needing to do the same thing to change your magazine.

But honestly, can't even believe I'm having this debate. Basically we started with the 550 series being one of a handful of "other designs" that can actually perform against the AR/M4 series and now people are trying to play "gotcha" games when I pointed out that the ergos are actually very similar.

If things were reversed and Stoner incorporated the folding trigger guard found on the SIG rifle and the swiss had what amounted to a swing down with a bullet detent release and anyone tried to suggest one was as good as the other the AR/M4 crowd would lose their damn minds.

The Swiss design is simply superior, it folds out of the way quickly and easily without the need of any tools. Of course the Swiss were able to come up with some neat ideas because it is a rifle that was designed in the late 1980s vs. the late 1950s so they were able to look at everything out there and make improvements here and there.

And not sure when you last held a Sig 550 series, when I want to adjust the gas selector I simply turn it with a thumb and forefinger. It's pretty damn easy.

[RetroRevolver77]

AKs are great, except when they aren't.

He got 5% less on his overall score with the AK than the previous year using an AR.

Went from a 90% division score in the AR crowd to a 68% division score in the AK crowd- sounds like weapons familiarity issues.

[jesuvuah]

No I'm comparing a true folding trigger guard to one that requires a bullet to use and even then it's still a crappy stopgap. Trust me if it's frooking cold out and you need to move the trigger guard out of the way so you can shoot at people without taking your mittens off, the need to punch a very small detent with a bullet nose sucks ALMOST as bad as needing to do the same thing to change your magazine.

But honestly, can't even believe I'm having this debate. Basically we started with the 550 series being one of a handful of "other designs" that can actually perform against the AR/M4 series and now people are trying to play "gotcha" games when I pointed out that the ergos are actually very similar.

If things were reversed and Stoner incorporated the folding trigger guard found on the SIG rifle and the swiss had what amounted to a swing down with a bullet detent release and anyone tried to suggest one was as good as the other the AR/M4 crowd would lose their damn minds.

The Swiss design is simply superior, it folds out of the way quickly and easily without the need of any tools. Of course the Swiss were able to come up with some neat ideas because it is a rifle that was designed in the late 1980s vs. the late 1950s so they were able to look at everything out there and make improvements here and there.

And not sure when you last held a Sig 550 series, when I want to adjust the gas selector I simply turn it with a thumb and forefinger. It's pretty damn easy.

Chill out bro. Comparing the trigger guard on the AR to the bullet button was just silly and I pointed that out. Not saying it couldn't be better, but I will also say that it gets sub zero where I live and I never have any issues shooting any rifle with gloves on.

My comment on the gas block was not pointed at the Sig 550, I was just generalizing because there are rifles set up like tgat.

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[MountainRaven]

He got 5% less on his overall score with the AK than the previous year using an AR.

Went from a 90% division score in the AR crowd to a 68% division score in the AK crowd- sounds like weapons familiarity issues.

Yup. Dude won the AK-74 division (Light Division - 5.56 or 5.45 AK with iron sights) at Red Oktober 2016 - with a laminate handguard, triangle folding-stocked SLR-104, while wearing KLMK, blue telnyashka, and blue Adidas - and took second in the shoot-off at the end of the end of the match. Obviously he isn't familiar with the AK.

[SteyrAUG]

Chill out bro. Comparing the trigger guard on the AR to the bullet button was just silly and I pointed that out. Not saying it couldn't be better, but I will also say that it gets sub zero where I live and I never have any issues shooting any rifle with gloves on.

My comment on the gas block was not pointed at the Sig 550, I was just generalizing because there are rifles set up like tgat.

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If I came off dismissive it's because the argument was starting to get dumb. And honestly I think I was responding to more than just your comments.

I was simply saying with a SIG you just fold the trigger guard out of the way. I just tried it with my Colt 6520 and it took me three tries using a 5.56 round. More importantly the part of the frame where it hinges behind the trigger is kinda in the way. People bitch about A2 pistol grips, well same problem here. I understand it's better than nothing but the SIG just folds out of the way in a second or less to the left or right. It's just better, kinda like how the magazine change on an AR is just better than the rock and lock system used for the SIG.

The gas selector is as easy to operate with one hand as the fire selector on an AR. I'd compare it to the gas selector on the AR but there isn't one unless you install an aftermarket system. But really this is something inherent to piston systems so really the AR doesn't even need a gas selector.

Make no mistake, I consider the AR/M4 platform to be one the the best rifles of the 20th century and today. I can come up with about 5 weapon systems that are even in the same class. I'm not the one here arguing that the AK us better because of some dust test that will probably never be a real world consideration for some users.

But that said, there are rifles that do have some features the AR doesn't even come close to. Somebody mentioned modularity of uppers, well the AUG quick change barrel system destroys the multiple uppers for the same lower concept. It's literally one rifle with 3 to four barrels. But again the AUG is a rifle adopted in 1977 so they were able to look at existing systems and borrow concepts. Is it a better rifle than the AR/M4? For certain applications yes, as a general carbine probably not.

And that is what the SIG series is. It's one of those few modern designs, that unlike say the HK G36, can actually compete with the AR/M4 series in most areas with similar performance. And that really is all I'm trying to get across. Nobody is suggesting everyone should get rid of their AR/M4 rifles and buy a SIG.

[eodinert]

You'll probably know it's going to be cold before you get to the fight. You'll have time to open the trigger guard on your M4.

..and the ergos on a Sig 550 are not as good as an M4. I can barely get ahold of the selector with my thumb on the 550 from a firing position. I have average sized hands. The 550 is much wider over the web of the hand, and the selector is higher. It's especially dramatic when you swap back and forth between the two and feel the difference. It much easier for me to move the selector on the Sig if I swing the barrel to my weak side, and put the stock on the outside of my strong side arm...much like an Hk rifle. The Sig safety is more like an Hk than an AR.