Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

[Doc Safari]

Where do you think that these shitty AK in the Middle East come from? Most of them were made in the USSR and got sold off to the world when Ivan had his going out of business sale.

All I know is: If the civilian AK's made by former East Bloc countries are any indication, the quality control problems I experienced were enough to make me eventually switch to the M4. I was an AK lover who felt "cheated on" by crappy quality control in what should have been the ultimate SHTF weapon. I've seen everything from canted sights to badly chromed bores to horrible round feeding in 5.56 AK's....I could go on and on.

How come I've literally experienced ONE issue with an M4 (easily corrected) during my entire history of ownership of them? And I DO stick to Colts and BCM's, by the way. But the contrast is amazing.

I suspect if I could locate a near mint Type 3 Soviet AK47 from the height of the Cold War it might be superior to anything else. But every time I fantasize about that wonder weapon that would require a time machine for me to acquire, I remember such atrocities as an Egyptian Maadi with the hammer pin holes misaligned...etc.

Watch the opening moments of "Enemy at the Gates" where one soldier gets the rifle, the next guy gets the ammo, etc. and the officer is screaming into the intercom, "When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one with the ammo picks up the rifle and shoots." You will then understand the purpose of the AK. It's for Ivan and his 30,000 buddies to run at the enemy blazing away on full auto. Sure half of them get killed. No one lives long enough to wear out his "crappy commie rifle."

[Sooter76]

Some companies like Palmetto and DPMS crank out cheap AR15's (that still work in normal non-extreme conditions). Same with AK's; maybe you've heard of I.O. inc.

To be fair, PSA actually uses decent parts, they just cut out the middleman... Helps a lot to keep down costs.

Secondly, are you implying that I.O. makes a decent AK!? Most of the rifles from them I've seen can't even make it a hundred rounds before they die.

[JusticeM4]

To be fair, PSA actually uses decent parts, they just cut out the middleman... Helps a lot to keep down costs.

Secondly, are you implying that I.O. makes a decent AK!? Most of the rifles from them I've seen can't even make it a hundred rounds before they die.

Maybe I wrote that wrong. I.O. is terrible. Give me a WASR anyday (I've owned 2 that worked fine)

and yes, I've built about a dozen PSA AR15's and they all work just fine. Just not one I'd take if my life depended on it.

Where do you think that these shitty AK in the Middle East come from? Most of them were made in the USSR and got sold off to the world when Ivan had his going out of business sale.

Referring to the Arsenal and Saiga AK's I've owned in the past. Even the Draco and M92 Pap I had are quite good.

You are probably talking about the cheap mass-produced old AK's from some outdated factories and given to rebels or lower-tier soldiers.

I hope you're not implying that Bulgarian and Russian (Saiga/Vepr) rifles are bad. I've owned 3 that were all great (12g, 7.62, and 5.45)

[Sooter76]

Where do you think that these shitty AK in the Middle East come from? Most of them were made in the USSR and got sold off to the world when Ivan had his going out of business sale.

They actually come from all over the place, including some cottage gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass region where they're cobbled together using scrap metal... And again, even if they were quality made many, probably most, of them are 30-50 years old now and inadequately maintained. Go dig a first generation M16A1 that's been sitting uncleaned in the Georgia humidity outta Grampa's attic and tell me you'd argue it's indicative of all similar rifles?

You can't compare an AK made in the 60's that's been poorly maintained to a new generation M4 anymore than you can compare a poorly maintained M16A1 found in Africa to a new generation Bulgarian or Russian made AK100 series. It's a strawman...

[Sooter76]

Maybe I wrote that wrong. I.O. is terrible. Give me a WASR anyday (I've owned 2 that worked fine)

WASR's a decent for a lower end AK. Their QC has improved dramatically anyway... But they still tend to be less accurate than a Russian or Bulgarian equivalent. They'll get the job done, but they wouldn't be my first choice.

[RetroRevolver77]

Glad someone enjoyed that.

I thought it was weak honestly. Showed you can't form an educated reply but instead resort to personal attacks. You haven't fired 5K rounds through an AK let alone 100K getting to know the actual strengths and weaknesses of the design. Someone who has actual experience with that platform is trying to point at that not only did the Russian AK surpass all the other western designed rifles in an extreme environmental test but now they make optics ready AK's equally as accurate as our M4. Some might be concerned about that, maybe use that info to make our rifles more reliable. Or not- just ignore that fact until we're fighting in Siberia against weapons that are just as accurate but far better acclimated to that type environment. At least I tried to bring that peoples attention.

I didn't know you could hammer rivets on a CNC machine.

They don't hammer rivets, the use a giant press. Many of the former com block manufacturers have upgraded, they now have modern CNC equipment that probably rivals HK or Colt. These are state manufacturing facilities so they invest heavily into them. Watch the video of the Polish factory I posted earlier to see what I'm talking about. As far as capabilities of these modern AK's. Here's an imported Polish Archer Beryl M96 5.56NATO that gets 1.6 MOA with wolf ammo and 1.07 MOA with Federal XM193. That's more accurate than a baseline M4- which is what I'm trying to point out that these aren't the rusted out 1950's junk AKM's that people have come up against in the past.

[1168]

Polish Archer Beryl M96 5.56NATO that gets 1.6 MOA with wolf ammo and 1.07 MOA with Federal XM193. That's more accurate than a baseline M4]

While I respect the accuracy of a well built AK with halfway decent ammo, are you comparing a single rifle sample with 5 round groups to the military acceptance minimum standard for the M4, which if I am not mistaken, is the composite of 3 10 round groups with M855? Most rifles exceed this standard by a quite a good bit when firing not-M855 with 5rd groups. Do you have a comparison group to offer with XM193 fired from a M4A1, which now comes with the “SOCOM” profile barrel?

[RetroRevolver77]

While I respect the accuracy of a well built AK with halfway decent ammo, are you comparing a single rifle sample with 5 round groups to the military acceptance minimum standard for the M4, which if I am not mistaken, is the composite of 3 10 round groups with M855? Most rifles exceed this standard by a quite a good bit when firing not-M855 with 5rd groups. Do you have a comparison group to offer with XM193 fired from a M4A1, which now comes with the “SOCOM” profile barrel?

OK so just showed that a modern 5.56 AK can shoot around 1 MOA with XM193, which isn't even match ammo. Now you want to split hairs if this weapon or that weapon can shoot better- that's not the point. This was simply to show their weapons can be accurate. Not only that, their rifles are more durable and far more reliable in extremely adverse conditions as the tests shown. We either create a more reliable rifle or we choose to ignore it- doesn't matter to me. Just trying to let people know that our perceived edge in small arms isn't as great over our potential enemies as it once was. Personally I have AR's, 5.56 AK's, and AUG's so I'm good to go.


7n6

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I thought it was weak honestly. Showed you can't form an educated reply but instead resort to personal attacks. You haven't fired 5K rounds through an AK let alone 100K getting to know the actual strengths and weaknesses of the design. Someone who has actual experience with that platform is trying to point at that not only did the Russian AK surpass all the other western designed rifles in an extreme environmental test but now they make optics ready AK's equally as accurate as our M4. Some might be concerned about that, maybe use that info to make our rifles more reliable. Or not- just ignore that fact until we're fighting in Siberia against weapons that are just as accurate but far better acclimated to that type environment. At least I tried to bring that peoples attention.




They don't hammer rivets, the use a giant press. Many of the former com block manufacturers have upgraded, they now have modern CNC equipment that probably rivals HK or Colt. These are state manufacturing facilities so they invest heavily into them. Watch the video of the Polish factory I posted earlier to see what I'm talking about. As far as capabilities of these modern AK's. Here's an imported Polish Archer Beryl M96 5.56NATO that gets 1.6 MOA with wolf ammo and 1.07 MOA with Federal XM193. That's more accurate than a baseline M4- which is what I'm trying to point out that these aren't the rusted out 1950's junk AKM's that people have come up against in the past.

This is actually really impressive. I never thought anything would get me to sell my SR-15 but this has me pretty compelled...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sooter76]

While I respect the accuracy of a well built AK with halfway decent ammo, are you comparing a single rifle sample with 5 round groups to the military acceptance minimum standard for the M4, which if I am not mistaken, is the composite of 3 10 round groups with M855? Most rifles exceed this standard by a quite a good bit when firing not-M855 with 5rd groups. Do you have a comparison group to offer with XM193 fired from a M4A1, which now comes with the “SOCOM” profile barrel?

To be fair, Polish 5.56 AK's have a very good reputation for accuracy. MAC's groupings are far from uncommon...

That said, as much as I know that AK's are more accurate than they're being given credit for here, they will never match a modern AR15 rifle. Part of that is due to the thinner barrel they sport, part of it is due to the Stoner design just lending itself to very good accuracy. Most quality AK's (Russian, Polish, and Bulgarian) will shoot about 3-4 MOA. Most AR15's will do at least that and usually better.

My SGL-31 shoots on average 1.5 MOA but after about 20 shots the barrel heats up and my groups open up. Also past 300 meters the ballistics of the 7.62x39 take over and it's harder to get good hits. My SLR-106 is about the same in accuracy, but I obviously get more accurate shots at longer distances with the 5.56 round and the barrel doesn't heat up as quick. Still, for a battle rifle 3-4 MOA isn't bad... Especially at the ranges most engagements take place. But I won't argue that, generally speaking, the AK is as accurate as the AR.