Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

[Tx_Aggie]

From the blog post on SSD quoted in the OP:

"Endurance Testing. Condition of the weapons; cleaned and oiled. Multiple series of 120 round intervals. First magazine, five single shots and the remained fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. Subsequent magazines fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. After the 120-round sequence, the weapons cooled to within 2°C (35.6°F) of ambient, and then another interval was fired. Weapons were cleaned and lubricated every 1,200 rounds.

Accuracy at 100M, muzzle velocity, and rate-of-fire were tested at the beginning and end of each cleaning and lubrication cycle. Only CZ and FN participated in the endurance testing with varying results."

I wonder why Kalashnikov chose not to run their rifle through the endurance testing?

[jesuvuah]

Already stated that my ideal rifle would essentially be a modified SIG 55X type with QD barrel- so modernized ergo's is inferred. Getting back to the article, even today, given all the manufacturers competing and submitted weapons for testing prior, the only one that completed the extreme environmental testing is a seventy year old design. This is also one of the few state level formal rifle tests that I've ever seen that involved multiple platforms- which is why it was of interest. Seen similar results testing many of these same weapons in the civilian world but those tests are discounted because they are just "backyard" torture tests. Seems these more formal results should be a wake up call to manufacturers and with our technology we should be able to design something better.




No, it's not even close.

I am thinking that this test isn't much of a wake up call to them because unless NATO countries start complaining, they probably don't even care.

I have a feeling that modern militaries are more concerned with other things then if a gun will function after being burried in mud.

Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

[kaltesherz]

We need a sub forum titled 7n6's train depot & AK emporium.

Every time I read about the 10m onto concrete drop test 'requirement' I get the chuckles.

Also, the user that noted that bolt hold open and a decent safety is spot on.

A redesigned Sig SG55X rifle would be pretty badass. Oh wait, isn't that a SCAR...?

(((INITIATE THE COUNTDOWN UNTIL 7N6 POSTS ABOUT THE SCAR TRUNION PROBLEMS THAT START TO CROP UP AFTER 140K ROUNDS)))

This needs to be a sticky ^^^^^

They tried the "wouldn't it be cool if someone designed the best carbine ever!", ended up with the SCAR, and the cool kids that took it downrange realized it really didn't do anything the M4A1 didn't already do, just a lot cheaper. There's a reason SOF dudes the world over prefer M4 type weapons- it's extremely ergonomic, easily adaptable, and reliable. As much as they keep trying to beat it, we keep getting "meh"

[RetroRevolver77]

We need a sub forum titled 7n6's train depot & AK emporium.

Every time I read about the 10m onto concrete drop test 'requirement' I get the chuckles.

Also, the user that noted that bolt hold open and a decent safety is spot on.

A redesigned Sig SG55X rifle would be pretty badass. Oh wait, isn't that a SCAR...?

(((INITIATE THE COUNTDOWN UNTIL 7N6 POSTS ABOUT THE SCAR TRUNION PROBLEMS THAT START TO CROP UP AFTER 140K ROUNDS)))

No the SCAR is an AR18 hybrid while the SIG 55X is an AK hybrid. The SCAR trunnion is fine; just don't drop it, fall on it, or fire it suppressed with an ACR aftermarket stock. It's part of the new age of modern firearms designs with built in "crumple zones".

I wonder why Kalashnikov chose not to run their rifle through the endurance testing?

Because they probably didn't want to shame the competition even further after blowing through the mud and swamp tests.

I am thinking that this test isn't much of a wake up call to them because unless NATO countries start complaining, they probably don't even care.

I have a feeling that modern militaries are more concerned with other things then if a gun will function after being burried in mud.

Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

Imagine if we were to fight today on the Eastern Front like they did in WWII during the late fall winter time frame. Mud happens.

This needs to be a sticky ^^^^^

They tried the "wouldn't it be cool if someone designed the best carbine ever!", ended up with the SCAR, and the cool kids that took it downrange realized it really didn't do anything the M4A1 didn't already do, just a lot cheaper. There's a reason SOF dudes the world over prefer M4 type weapons- it's extremely ergonomic, easily adaptable, and reliable. As much as they keep trying to beat it, we keep getting "meh"

The problem is the SCAR isn't the best carbine ever as I believe it still needs further refinement. Though the SCAR would do better than an M4 in a swamp style over the beach test.


7n6

[noonesshowmonkey]

Look, dude.

If you want to create a start up that redesigns the SG55X rifle series--which is my 'someday' rifle--,updates them, and then manufacture them domestically, I'd pretty much nut in my pants.

But, until then, we just have the SCAR. And there are cool guys doing cool guy shit like over the beach ops in places like Coronado Point and Key West errry day using M4s. And then those same cool guys go do that shit in dangerous places. With M4s.

The AK is a great design, mechanically. It is no where near the quality of design on an M4 in terms of ergonomics and ease of upgrade. The difficulty related to, and limitations on, mounting optics on an AK are reason alone to abandon the project in the modern era. Which is a bigger force multiplier? Being able to shove your rifle up the ass of an elephant, kill the elephant, come back in a week, cut the elephant open and climb into it like a tuan taun, then shoot your way out in a bizarre demonstration of 'reliability' OR OR OR OR OR being able to quickly and efficiently mount an ACOG on to it, or LPVO, or red dot, OR swap from one to the other OR swap from a longer SPR upper to a suppressed SBR upper with two push pins OR OR OR OR... any of the real life shit that matters.

We get it, man. The AK is built like a friggin tank. I have a nice Wasr that has laser straight trunions, gas block, and front sight. It shoots 2ish MOA with golden tigre. I put some magpul furniture on it. I have a case of 8m3 running around to turn fleshy things insides into outsides. I actually love the rifle in a way that makes me feel a little shame. That rifle isn't nearly as handy, as well designed for fighting, as the AR that I put together. I can't perform up-drills with it at anything even close to the speed of my AR. Up-drills are fundamental to actually shooting a rifle for something other than punching paper. I can't adjust the position of an optic on it to find the exact spot for eye relief like on my AR. I can't adjust the length of pull easily without swapping to a zhukov stock. My mag changes aren't nearly as fast. A lot of the mission critical shooting characteristics about the AK just aren't there. I can comparatively run an AR like a scalded cat.

And 62gr Fusion or 77gr OTM isn't going to have someone looking down at their chest at 300m and saying, 'well, I'd die if this were 7.62x39, but since it's this pussy-ass 556, I'll just keep fightin!" Plus, with the Razor 1-6, I'll be slamming multiple hits onto a torso at that range with many times the ease and speed than my AK.

In an ideal world, we would have a different operating system. In the real world, we have what we have, and its actually pretty damn good.

Now, go get to work on setting up your machine shop and making me a redesigned SG55X.

[RetroRevolver77]

Look, dude.

If you want to create a start up that redesigns the SG55X rifle series--which is my 'someday' rifle--,updates them, and then manufacture them domestically, I'd pretty much nut in my pants.

But, until then, we just have the SCAR. And there are cool guys doing cool guy shit like over the beach ops in places like Coronado Point and Key West errry day using M4s. And then those same cool guys go do that shit in dangerous places. With M4s.

The AK is a great design, mechanically. It is no where near the quality of design on an M4 in terms of ergonomics and ease of upgrade. The difficulty related to, and limitations on, mounting optics on an AK are reason alone to abandon the project in the modern era. Which is a bigger force multiplier? Being able to shove your rifle up the ass of an elephant, kill the elephant, come back in a week, cut the elephant open and climb into it like a tuan taun, then shoot your way out in a bizarre demonstration of 'reliability' OR OR OR OR OR being able to quickly and efficiently mount an ACOG on to it, or LPVO, or red dot, OR swap from one to the other OR swap from a longer SPR upper to a suppressed SBR upper with two push pins OR OR OR OR... any of the real life shit that matters.

We get it, man. The AK is built like a friggin tank. I have a nice Wasr that has laser straight trunions, gas block, and front sight. It shoots 2ish MOA with golden tigre. I put some magpul furniture on it. I have a case of 8m3 running around to turn fleshy things insides into outsides. I actually love the rifle in a way that makes me feel a little shame. That rifle isn't nearly as handy, as well designed for fighting, as the AR that I put together. I can't perform up-drills with it at anything even close to the speed of my AR. Up-drills are fundamental to actually shooting a rifle for something other than punching paper. I can't adjust the position of an optic on it to find the exact spot for eye relief like on my AR. I can't adjust the length of pull easily without swapping to a zhukov stock. My mag changes aren't nearly as fast. A lot of the mission critical shooting characteristics about the AK just aren't there. I can comparatively run an AR like a scalded cat.

And 62gr Fusion or 77gr OTM isn't going to have someone looking down at their chest at 300m and saying, 'well, I'd die if this were 7.62x39, but since it's this pussy-ass 556, I'll just keep fightin!" Plus, with the Razor 1-6, I'll be slamming multiple hits onto a torso at that range with many times the ease and speed than my AK.

In an ideal world, we would have a different operating system. In the real world, we have what we have, and its actually pretty damn good.

Now, go get to work on setting up your machine shop and making me a redesigned SG55X.

I just thought it was interesting that despite all these manufacturers with their modern designed weapons, none passed the actual mud/sand tests. I'm not deriding any other rifle, the test results are what they are just that, maybe someone can take away some lessons from all this. Maybe design something that can function in such extreme environments but also have modern ergonomics. At this time, the only rifle that can pass that type of testing is the lowly old AK, which is fine, it was designed for that type of muddy environment and extreme cold warfare. I own about half a dozen AR's, a few AUG's and about a dozen plus AK's including several 5.56 AK's- so it's not like I don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of other rifle systems. I'd like to shitcan them all and go to one rifle system but it has to be reliable above all else and so far nothing like that really exists. I admit I was somewhat excited about the newer SIG MCX, kind of an AR18/AR15 hybrid until I saw that it barely functioned during MAC's torture testing- so I just stay where I am with the rifles I have. I may pick up another SCAR someday but right now I have two FAL's, a few HK 91's, and an M1A so likely just work with what I got until something better comes along.

[kaltesherz]

Imagine if we were to fight today on the Eastern Front like they did in WWII during the late fall winter time frame. Mud happens.

7n6

AK mud test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX73uXs3xGU

AR mud test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAneTFiz5WU

[RetroRevolver77]

AK mud test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX73uXs3xGU

AR mud test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAneTFiz5WU

The AK didn't run in the Inrange TV video because the bolt carrier couldn't close all the way, that's by design- to keep the weapon from firing out of battery. The AK if it does get some mud above the barrel area of the trunnion can easily be put back into service by wiping away that area so the bolt can close. They chose to ram the bolt forward several times impacting the mud making the situation worse before attempting to remove the debris. Nice thing about the AK, if it does get mud inside, pop the topcover, everything comes out- and just wipe it all away even with a gloved hand.

The AR on the other hand is a sealed design so the thicker mud purposely selected by the Inrange TV test video won't get inside. The AR however lacks room for debris around critical moving components. Worse, the AR has near zero room for even using your hands to clear away debris- so your down until you can get to your cleaning kit.

Here's an example of very mild over the beach test between an TAVOR/AR/AK demonstrating why the seventy year old AK is still a major contender;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9lZO74YCE


Here's an example of the AK's superior design qualities showcasing that it has plenty of room around critical moving components;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hFZ7Jt2hQ



Thoughts, that's why someone needs to design a modern weapon that is both sealed against the elements like the AR yet has clearances around moving components to mitigate debris like the AK. Combining these attributes into one weapon system with modern ergonomics along with having a piston to survive an over the beach test- would create perhaps the perfect weapon system. I also will add that a static ejector, reciprocating charging handle and folding stock would be a nice addition. The SCAR is not that rifle. The MCX is not that rifle. The SIG 55X with some tweaks specifically stanag magazine compatibility and a quick change barrel system- could be.


7n6

[bp7178]

The extreme testing is relevant because the world consists of extreme environments. Only one rifle consistently performs well in those environments but unfortunately, it's seventy year old technology. It's time for a more modernized yet equally capable, robust, and ergonomic weapon for development.


Using that superior reliable rifle as a baseline then I submit the following parameters;

1.) Weapon should be able to fire submerged...

I think this ignores what will happen to the bullet after leaving the barrel if fired while submerged which is why the requirement is nonsense.

[RetroRevolver77]

I think this ignores what will happen to the bullet after leaving the barrel if fired while submerged which is why the requirement is nonsense.

Not saying you need a weapon to fire at underwater targets. However if you are firing after crossing a body of water or are firing from a partially submerged position- then a weapon should at the minimum pass a basic over the beach test. Notice in the Regular Guy "Swamp Test" video, the AR basically ceased to function altogether after only getting dunked in water while the AK got dunked multiple times, rolled in the sand, and it still ran fine.

This is what reliability looks like, an AK firing submerged and partially submerged.