Military Weapons Trial, only the Kalashnikov AK 103 finishes the torture tests.

[96 SS]

The ACE is close to perfect - just needs to drop some weight. There is still stuff I’d change about it, but it’s closer to the ideal.

[jesuvuah]

Again, I can only guess, that no one is designing it because no one cares enough.

The m4 is reliable enough for western nations that teach marksmanship and rifle maintenance. Plus western nations don't win wars with rifles. They use logistics, communication, intel, air superiority, oh, and a few rifles.

And then the 3rd world nations, well the ak seems to be more then good enough to meet your needs.

That being said, it would be cool if a rifle existed that was modular, sub moa, ergo, and super duper rigid. But it seems that some of those characteristics cause conflicts with the other ones.

The real question is, why aren't we designing a rifle equally reliable and equally durable as some seventy year old WW II relic? Getting bogged down in the central Polesia swamps of Western Ukraine fighting Russians or fighting waves of Chinese on some frozen tundra for months on end- wouldn't be the best time to re-evaluate our weapon choices.





The new Galil does address some of the ergonomic issues. Similarly the Russians whom were fielding AK-74M's and AK-103's will go to the AK-12 and AK-15. A little more ergonomic variant but still close to the original specs of the 100 series.

http://modernfirearms.net/en/assault...-12-ak-15-eng/


7n6

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[kaltesherz]

Plus western nations don't win wars with rifles. They use logistics, communication, intel, air superiority, oh, and a few rifles.

In GWOT we've been killing plenty of bad guys with rifles (I wouldn't say we're winning anything, but that's another rant). When fighting insurgencies we can't use air / arty nearly as much as we'd like, so aimed small arms fire becomes a bigger priority. The biggest complaint about the M4 was the terminal ballistics of M855, and now with the M855A1 that issue is solved. M4A1 is even more accurate with the heavier barrel and better trigger. Sure, we could use a FF longer rail and maybe a better optic, but at that point you're splitting hairs.

[jesuvuah]

In GWOT we've been killing plenty of bad guys with rifles (I wouldn't say we're winning anything, but that's another rant). When fighting insurgencies we can't use air / arty nearly as much as we'd like, so aimed small arms fire becomes a bigger priority. The biggest complaint about the M4 was the terminal ballistics of M855, and now with the M855A1 that issue is solved. M4A1 is even more accurate with the heavier barrel and better trigger. Sure, we could use a FF longer rail and maybe a better optic, but at that point you're splitting hairs.

My point wasn't that we don't use rifles, just that they are 1 thing in a chain of many.

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[RetroRevolver77]

Again, I can only guess, that no one is designing it because no one cares enough.

The m4 is reliable enough for western nations that teach marksmanship and rifle maintenance. Plus western nations don't win wars with rifles. They use logistics, communication, intel, air superiority, oh, and a few rifles.

And then the 3rd world nations, well the ak seems to be more then good enough to meet your needs.

That being said, it would be cool if a rifle existed that was modular, sub moa, ergo, and super duper rigid. But it seems that some of those characteristics cause conflicts with the other ones.

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I'm not talking about fighting loosely organized third world militants fielding fifty year old rusted out AKM's and PKM's. I'm talking about fighting a near peer adversary willing to put a few hundred thousand bodies on the line with similar technology and with modernized weaponry that are outfitted on par with our own weaponry. The point is, a newer version of the AK rifle, the AK 103 which is the Russian's 1990's model they build primarily for export, not even their current model which is even more ergonomic- just showed that it is still the most reliable rifle on the planet in adverse conditions. The issue isn't whether we teach marksmanship and maintenance, that will only carry us so far. The issue is whether we can maintain that effectiveness after fighting for months on end in arctic conditions in their backyard given the maintenance sensitivity limitations of our own weaponry. Accuracy wise, their 74 variants shoot on par with our M4- at least in my personal experience. No telling how accurate their newer AK-12 variant is or their modified AK-107 with the free float barrel is.

Skip to 1:20 to see Russia's newer AK-107 proto-type followed to what I believe is their new RPK variant with QD barrel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HMKEU5MEcw

I'll even say this further, one of the first environmental torture tests between several nation's weaponry that I've read was the 1986 Swat Magazine Extreme Cold Weather Testing- where only the AK variants actually were able to complete the testing in the negative 40 degree weather. Now that was between some M16A1's, some HK types, FNC's, Valmet's, and some Galil's. However I don't even think a modern M4 could pass that same test today because not much has changed internally to increase reliability other than some feed ramp extensions and an upgraded stiffer o-ring grommet under the extractor. The weapon would still sludge up if using to heavy of lubrication in such extreme cold temps and the weapon still lacks room for debris should it become compromised. Bottom line we cannot allow Europe and especially Russia or China- to outpace us in small arms development.


7n6

[sndt1319]

7n6,

You know your right. It’s all a deep state conspiracy to hinder our small arms development. The DNC operatives have prevented us from awarding numerous small arm advancements like the FAL over the M14, the Ultimax over the 249, and from the XM8 or 416 over the M4A1 for YEARS!

[RHINOWSO]

7n6,

You know your right. It’s all a deep state conspiracy to hinder our small arms development. The DNC operatives have prevented us from awarding numerous small arm advancements like the FAL over the M14, the Ultimax over the 249, and from the XM8 or 416 over the M4A1 for YEARS!

download.jpg

You win the internet today.

[RHINOWSO]

7n6,

You know your right. It’s all a deep state conspiracy to hinder our small arms development. The DNC operatives have prevented us from awarding numerous small arm advancements like the FAL over the M14, the Ultimax over the 249, and from the XM8 or 416 over the M4A1 for YEARS!

download.jpg

You win the internet today.

[RetroRevolver77]

7n6,

You know your right. It’s all a deep state conspiracy to hinder our small arms development. The DNC operatives have prevented us from awarding numerous small arm advancements like the FAL over the M14, the Ultimax over the 249, and from the XM8 or 416 over the M4A1 for YEARS!

Never said anything about some conspiracy to hinder us. We have an excellent rifle for most intended purposes however it's also not the best for adverse conditions especially now since our potential adversaries are advancing their small arms technology. Now while we think we have the Middle East contained or Europe contained- either one could turn out to be a major hot spot over the next decade. I think we could end up in a Russian backed conflict in the Middle East, not just a proxy war but a full on military conflict between NATO, Syria, Iran, and Russia. More recently the country of Georgia has expressed interest in joining NATO and Russia said they would invade if that is the case- forcing us to defend our potential new partner in the Russians backyard.

The video below is well worth watching. Here is the mindset of the Russians today from a political talk show; "If Russia isn't a Global Power, there will be no Russia". They absolutely will not let that happen. Notice one guy in the room is extremely well versed in global politics, he understands Putin's mindset and Trump's mindset. I see them not willing to go quietly into the night especially if the EU continues to marginalize their economy and NATO threatens their allies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bCu1JNO7eOg

[jesuvuah]

I'm not talking about fighting loosely organized third world militants fielding fifty year old rusted out AKM's and PKM's. I'm talking about fighting a near peer adversary willing to put a few hundred thousand bodies on the line with similar technology and with modernized weaponry that are outfitted on par with our own weaponry. The point is, a newer version of the AK rifle, the AK 103 which is the Russian's 1990's model they build primarily for export, not even their current model which is even more ergonomic- just showed that it is still the most reliable rifle on the planet in adverse conditions. The issue isn't whether we teach marksmanship and maintenance, that will only carry us so far. The issue is whether we can maintain that effectiveness after fighting for months on end in arctic conditions in their backyard given the maintenance sensitivity limitations of our own weaponry. Accuracy wise, their 74 variants shoot on par with our M4- at least in my personal experience. No telling how accurate their newer AK-12 variant is or their modified AK-107 with the free float barrel is.

Skip to 1:20 to see Russia's newer AK-107 proto-type followed to what I believe is their new RPK variant with QD barrel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HMKEU5MEcw

I'll even say this further, one of the first environmental torture tests between several nation's weaponry that I've read was the 1986 Swat Magazine Extreme Cold Weather Testing- where only the AK variants actually were able to complete the testing in the negative 40 degree weather. Now that was between some M16A1's, some HK types, FNC's, Valmet's, and some Galil's. However I don't even think a modern M4 could pass that same test today because not much has changed internally to increase reliability other than some feed ramp extensions and an upgraded stiffer o-ring grommet under the extractor. The weapon would still sludge up if using to heavy of lubrication in such extreme cold temps and the weapon still lacks room for debris should it become compromised. Bottom line we cannot allow Europe and especially Russia or China- to outpace us in small arms development.


7n6

I get everything your saying, but I just don't think that the US using an m4 instead of a different rifle would have much affect on such a war.

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