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Senior Member
It was far more prominent in the other thread.Originally Posted by Hmac
However, I will state that some of the rhetoric, even in this thread, seems to be implying that it's an ever increasing risk.
And, worry? No. Be aware and conscious of with a healthy amount of caution? Absolutely.
Last edited by HeruMew; 08-02-18 at 13:05.
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I've done it.
BAD GUY: Where ever it happens, put them on the ground face down, arms out and palms up. If they don't comply be prepared to have to shoot them.
YOU: Holding at gunpoint, finger OFF the trigger and weapon low ready so you are not hiding it (scary for cops) and so you are not pointing it anywhere near responding officers (scary for cops).
Most important thing: CALM CONTACT. Try not to yell anything.
First business: Bad guy HIM, homeowner ME.
If the opportunity exists explain that bad guy MIGHT have a weapon, you don't know.
Either before or after you can pass that information along, they are probably going to want to disarm YOU. Do it calmly and in as much harmony with their directions as possible. State your intentions of compliance prior to doing so. For example.
"I'm putting it on the ground now"
"Backing away slowly now"
"I'm getting on the ground now"
Haven't done it in awhile, but cell phone where you continue to remain in contact with 911 the entire time is recommended. Make sure responding officers understand it is a cell phone in your other hand.
I have also found a brightly lit yard full of motion activated security cameras really, really helps. They can see nobody is hiding in the bushes waiting to ambush them and stuff like that.
And here is a strange one. If you LOOK like you know what you are doing, sometimes that puts you in the "one of us vs. one of them" classification that LEOs use when sorting out who is who upon arrival. Additionally a strong LED also helps. You can "flash" responding offices to your location and then keep the light on the BAD GUY as they pull up. Mentally it helps them make that "one of us vs. one of them" determination on first contact. They typically associate the guy on the ground with the bright light on him as "probably BAD GUY."
And if you are unclear of LEO instructions GET CONFIRMATION..."What do you want me to do exactly?" Repeat their request back to them. Then calmly do it.
If you have calm, control of things when they arrive, try and keep it that way as you transition control to responding officers.
A couple other things off the top of my head. Until they specifically ID you, your name is HOMEOWNER and that is how you refer to yourself. Don't reach for IDs, let them know it's in your back pocket or wherever it is. Don't freak out if you get cuffed, being cuffed is not the same as being arrested.
If they say "I'm handcuffing your for your protection and ours" say "I understand."
Save most of "Here is what happened" for after they have everyone under control.
And if things are just getting out of hand, keep your hands way above your head, even if one has a gun in it and keep asking for permission to put the gun down until you get specific directions to put the gun down then do it calmly.
If you can be reholstered when they arrive that would be great, but hard to do with a rifle. If you have a concealed holster just put the gun on the ground instead, ideally not in 2 foot grass where it's now hidden.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
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Okay, you win.
Senior Member
I'm not afraid of leo now or decades ago. They are people, most trying to do a harder than average job.
What has changed is the number and use of no-knock and close variants that are still very hot and aggressive entries. And "knock" warrants which might as well be no-knock. (Some pretty bad examples in my state)
And I believe these have far higher probability of confusion, misidentification, etc.
Living on a rural property in a major metro area, home invasion is a real concern.
I don't lose sleep over it, but I sure hope I'm never the wrong house (or even right house) with the way most warrants seem to be served lately. Not that I'd ever do anything knowingly, but a home invasion and a 3am police entry are awfully close from the perspective of someone who is sound asleep.
Same for late night traffic stops. I go way out of my way to make it as easy for the officer. Lights, hands clearly visible on the wheel, window rolled down, etc.
Human error and normal distribution of skills/training are still (to me) the biggest factor, as they are in any job. I'm just glad I'm not in a job where people may die if I make the wrong call.
That said, it does seem to me that the use of aggressive entries on non-violent types is way more than it should be. Does not mean it should be banned, just require a higher threshold of diligence. Should not be used for CI based busts without other validation, etc. Again, some pretty notorious examples in my state.
Snagging a MI13 or known felon? Swat up. Grabbing grandpa with a clean record because a CI said he sold dope? Keep the new Dept MRAP in the barn and grab the guy when he goes for his daily trip to the diner.
That's just my candid opinion as a guy in my late 50s who grew up around cops.
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Probably helps that I've spent more time in police academies than most cops I know. From 87 to about 95 I worked in various capacities as instructor / assistant instructor on a variety of subjects so since I was going to spend 8 hours a day there anyway, I sat in on a lot of classes / lectures and have the benefit of learning what cadets were being taught (or at least what was being taught 20 years ago).
Got to the point I knew most of the answers to most of the questions and more importantly I had an understanding of the mindset of a responding officer and what they would typically try and accomplish. If you help them do their job it goes a long way towards keeping them calm and helping them not make mistakes.
I think there was even one instance where I actually told a cop who seemed like he was getting skittish about the fact that I had a HK G3 (a real one) to "relax and remember your training...I'm being compliant...what do you want me to do next?"
Kinda broke the ice, but not sure if I'd recommend flippant remarks in every case. I got away with it and turned "skittish new cop" into "nervous laugh cop" and at that point we were talking to each other and he got some composure back.
Of course if you are going to use an actual HK G3 as a home defense rifle outside, you probably should be prepared to talk down a "Holy Crap I've never seen a machine gun that goddamn big in my life" responding officer. Again, I can't stress "calm contact" enough. If the homeowner freaks out, cops generally respond poorly to that stimulus and tend to focus on that one bit of trivia from the academy that "most cops die responding to domestic type calls."
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
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Senior Member
DO NOT have an inexperienced person zip tie or otherwise attempt to restrain a not quite detained criminal. Even trained and experienced professionals can be easily tangled up or worse by a determined bad guy.
Lots of good points here and a bit of media driven current events hyperbole as well. All I have to say is pay attention to what's going on around you and don't look like a bad guy doing something bad or worse a crazy person being crazy.
Dennis.
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Yeah, I probably should have touched on that.
If you honestly believe this person to be so damn dangerous you might have to actually shoot them at any moments then do not send ANYBODY near them for any reason.
Provide two options: 1. On the ground, arms out and palms up or Be shot.
Nobody should go near them for any reason at all, don't put your fingerprints on their weapons and don't stray into "kidnapping" territory with handcuffs and zip ties. If you believe yourself capable of wrassling a home invader down and hog tying him, a skillful attorney will have little trouble convincing twelve people that you clearly didn't need a gun.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
كافر
Moderator
Points to ponder
property vs. immediate and unavoidable threat to life
castle doctrine, yes or no?
good communication and descriptions-be clear
comply 100% with LE orders, including dispatchers
when in doubt-let the bad guy go and secure weapon--what I mean here is you know in your heart and mind whether you are right or wrong-it's actually easy at that point in time
look before you move the gun to sight or sound
Bottom line is to use your god given common sense.
In my 30 years, never was a person prosecuted for holding at gunpoint, "securing" a bad guy, etc. Of course nobody ever had a bad shooting-or at least lucky they shot like shit. Where for discharging(see below)
A policy was in place for off duty and even plain clothes to comply which even meant being placed in prone when in doubt by uniformed personnel.
Funniest one which involved a peeping tom was a family just moved from Kansas, 5 teenage daughters mom and dad. Well he was caught and promptly had an ass whipping of his life on that lawn by all of them. Maybe a different time and place but nothing but the guy going to jail-might have been a stop at the ER
One shooting was funny in a sense but not in regards to the damage or even potential charges. He had to be charged with discharging in the city though, no way around that one.
Apartment area, guy hears car alarm, see bad guy running, 27 rounds later from a G21 and nothing but shot cars and apartments, bad civil day for him.
GET IN YOUR BUBBLE!
Senior Member
Agreed. You have to remember that when they arrive on the scene they have no idea who's who until they start assessing the situation.
My worry is incompetence or poor training more than anything else. When I worked for a law enforcement agency "range day" could be a dangerous endeavor. I remember one case where the order to advance was interpreted as an order to fire by literally every officer on the firing line except me. I was the only one that began to advance, and when the others started firing I stood down and waited for the range officer to blow a gasket over their mistake--which he did.
From that day forward I've had to assume that not every officer is a sterling example of the city's finest.
Senior Member
So from a practical standpoint, how do you back that command up?Presumably you can't just shoot an unarmed man for failure to follow your instructions..
What I mean is, what if the guy calls your bluff so to speak? Say he's dropped his weapon, but refuses to comply with the order to lay down. Or say he does comply, initially, but during the wait for the police to arrive (which will probably seem like an eternity), he starts to suspect you won't shoot or don't have justification to shoot him and starts to get belligerent, and begins to get to his feet. You can only threaten so many times before that threat begins to perceived as being empty. A hardened criminal for instance, who has been on the muzzle side of a gun before and for whom this is not his first rodeo may begin to push back if he senses you may not be able to to follow through with your threat. Maybe he knows the law, maybe he thinks you're soft, but either way when you give someone the order "Do _____ or I'll shoot you" you can't just keep not shooting him when he keeps not doing the thing you told him he'd be shot for not doing. Eventually the jig is going to be up and you're either going to have to let him run off into the night or get ready to explain why you had to put an anchor shot in the guy laying on your kitchen floor.
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