Task force suggest soldiers in mid 20's are more lethal

[Coal Dragger]

The basis for some of the arguments here that are against this so far is pretty weak. It’s probably a safe assumption that there is some evidence to support his claim that ignores the fact that he’s from a different branch of service.



At least one problem with that, however, is the fact that an aircraft mechanic would probably make a lot more money in the civilian sector so there wouldn’t be a whole lot of reason for those guys to stay in if the pay isn’t even fair across the board. Plus I know plenty of non-infantry types who have had a lot of risk and misery. Probably not as much, but it’s a foolish notion to think that just because someone isn’t infantry, they’re not enduring some suck too.


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I’m not saying lower the pay of non infantry MOS’s I’m suggesting raising the pay of infantry to reflect the real day to day disadvantages that career path involves.

A guy who turns wrenches isn’t getting the shaft here by not optioning infantry, he’s making a decision to not put up with some extra suck in exchange for more $$$ and keep on doing what he already planned to do.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Look at it this way, the average male brain fully develops around 25, so a 25 year old is invariably smarter and more mature than an 18 year old. Far more capable of effective rational independent thinking and action at that point, which in a small unit conflict is very important. A 25 year old who is active and trains physically is also probably going to outperform an 18 year old who has also been active and training physically. He’s had more time for his body to fully mature and build muscle mass.

Exactly this. 18-19 year olds are really not mature, mentally or physically. Just because they were successful soldiers in past wars, with a mass draft, doesn't mean they are ideal. And even the ones in excellent fitness tend to lack physical strength compared to the 22+ crowd.

How do you make this happen - put the 18yo enlistees on some track that is like an apprenticeship to front line infantry. Truck driver / reserve infantry or something. I don't have the full solution on that part.

[Averageman]

I joined the military as a teenager, I turned Nineteen in AIT.
I didn't mature physically until my mid twenties, I didn't peak until my mid thirties.
The only real advantage to joining at that age was that I gained an awful lot of good practical experience in my early twenties on the job that I wouldn't have gotten until my late twenties had I waited four years.
I wasn't Infantry, I was Armour, so there might be a big difference, I don't know for sure.
If this was implemented in Armor the only practical way to move forward would be to start Tankers as Mechanics, that would really pay off.

[Wake27]

start Tankers as Mechanics, that would really pay off.

Fully agreed there.


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[ABNAK]

So some guy who has just spent 4 years in an "XXX" MOS, and has matured enough to see what the grunt lifestyle is known to be, is going to forgo his REMF job to re-enlist for Infantry? Nah, I ain't seeing it. Not to mention that now you have the same problems as the Army's "cohort" units used to have: everyone attaining rank at the same time, in this case a bunch of E-4's staffing the Infantry but where are the Privates and PFC's?

If this was implemented what would result is a significant involuntary diversion to Infantry if you wanted to stay in and make a career of it. There wouldn't be enough volunteers.

Look, I was a grunt. I went in the day after my 18th birthday. I essentially didn't know any better ("Young and dumb and full of cum" as they say). I'm proud of what I did, and in hindsight wouldn't change a thing as it gave me valuable life experiences. However, if I had been 22 or 23 years old at the time I had to make the MOS decision after serving a hitch as a REMF I doubt it would have been Infantry.

[Coal Dragger]

That’s why you incentivize pay for grunts.

If you have a 4 year POG and he’s looking at staying in, and grunts make 3X as much, that’s a hell of an incentive to hit the gym and re-enlist 11x or 03x.

Pay grunts more, and open up promotions so they have more opportunities to advance. Then push those standards up so the good pay comes with increased performance.

As for what will be done without Pvt’s and Pfc’s: well there will be some shitty working parties that have to get done and Cpl’s and Sgt’s might find themselves doing them. However a lot of that shit is busy work to keep junior enlisted busy and hopefully out of trouble. If you factor in older more mature guys, the need for busy work goes away to a large extent.

[ABNAK]

That’s why you incentivize pay for grunts.

If you have a 4 year POG and he’s looking at staying in, and grunts make 3X as much, that’s a hell of an incentive to hit the gym and re-enlist 11x or 03x.

Pay grunts more, and open up promotions so they have more opportunities to advance. Then push those standards up so the good pay comes with increased performance.

As for what will be done without Pvt’s and Pfc’s: well there will be some shitty working parties that have to get done and Cpl’s and Sgt’s might find themselves doing them. However a lot of that shit is busy work to keep junior enlisted busy and hopefully out of trouble. If you factor in older more mature guys, the need for busy work goes away to a large extent.

What they ("they" meaning Scales in this case) are looking for is to make all grunts essentially into SOF units. It's not gonna happen. SpecOps are who they are for any one of a number of reasons, not the least of which is the grueling pipeline they have to endure to get there. Magically making all grunts 22 or 23 years old ain't gonna achieve that goal. Sure, they'll be more "mature" grunts age-wise, but they will NOT automatically be the HSLD force this plan envisions. They'll be more mature grunts, that's all. Maybe less drawing of dicks everywhere, less drunken debauchery and drama, but certainly not all Raiders/Recon/Rangers/Green Berets/SEALs.

[SeriousStudent]

The lone 24 year old in my boot camp cycle (‘68) was called the old man. Funny how perspective changes as we age.

I turned 26 in boot camp. I was older than everyone in the recruit training company I was assigned to, with the exceptions of the company Gunny and the Caption that was the CO.

My Senior Drill Instructor would yell "Get yer ass out of the rack, Pappy!" when the lights flipped on. He also yelled other things.

Yeah, my nickname was Pappy for about the first two years I was in. It was a lot better than the names he called other people - like Shitbag, Turd Thief, and JizzStain.

[Coal Dragger]

What they ("they" meaning Scales in this case) are looking for is to make all grunts essentially into SOF units. It's not gonna happen. SpecOps are who they are for any one of a number of reasons, not the least of which is the grueling pipeline they have to endure to get there. Magically making all grunts 22 or 23 years old ain't gonna achieve that goal. Sure, they'll be more "mature" grunts age-wise, but they will NOT automatically be the HSLD force this plan envisions. They'll be more mature grunts, that's all. Maybe less drawing of dicks everywhere, less drunken debauchery and drama, but certainly not all Raiders/Recon/Rangers/Green Berets/SEALs.

There will still be drawing of dicks, and debauchery. If you give me a sharpie and a porta-shitter I’m drawing dicks on it and writing “Wagner Loves The Cock” inside, and I’m 39 years old now. There would be more discretion out in town, and probably a lot less stupidity in the bricks though.

I don’t see this being a turning everything into an SOF like unit, there’s still a ton of training a guy in one of those outfits will endure to get where he is.

Logistically this is a tough one to change over to, but theoretically if a magic wand could be waved would have positive results.

[ABNAK]

I turned 26 in boot camp. I was older than everyone in the recruit training company I was assigned to, with the exceptions of the company Gunny and the Caption that was the CO.

My Senior Drill Instructor would yell "Get yer ass out of the rack, Pappy!" when the lights flipped on. He also yelled other things.

Yeah, my nickname was Pappy for about the first two years I was in. It was a lot better than the names he called other people - like Shitbag, Turd Thief, and JizzStain.

I went through Army Infantry OSUT in 1983. We had a guy who was 37yo go through my cycle......but there was a catch. He was a 'Nam SF vet. For some reason (I surmise because he had been out for too long) they made him re-do OSUT from Day One. He was made a Platoon Guide right off the bat. Soft-spoken guy, we all knew (the Drill Sergeants included) who/what he was. He did everything with us, no slack cut there. However, the DS didn't f**k with him either. He is the only guy, and that means the DS too, who had shaded glasses on in my basic "yearbook". On graduation day he had a full rack of ribbons, SF combat patch on his right shoulder, Combat Infantry Badge, jump wings, and those damn shades! One of my senior drills walked up to him in, gave him a once over, and walked away as he smiled and shook his head......that dude's uniform blew his away!

He was rumored to have been trying to get back into SF. Don't know if it ever happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had done it.

I can remember once or twice he was called into the DS CP ("head shed") and he was in there for a while both times. We wondered if they dared to try and smoke him, but he never had a bead of sweat showing! I would wager that the senior DS (most of them 'Nam vets too at that time) told him to have a seat and they bullshitted.