Question: "Muzzle Energy" vs. "Power Factor"

[T2C]

I don't put much weight on energy calculations or Emergency Room doctor opinions. I had the opportunity to investigate a number of shooting incidents where I interviewed the shooter and was able to ask what the attacker did immediately after being shot. I interviewed Emergency Room doctors who treated people who were shot. I also attended autopsies and reviewed other investigative reports. Most of the attackers were shot with handguns. I've heard some wild opinions from ER doctors and surgeons that were contrary to what actually occurred and could have hurt the shooter in criminal court.

There is some use for collecting scientific data, but I have never been attacked by a gelation block or had an ER doctor present when I was attacked. I've seen people in the field within minutes after they were shot. I select my carry ammunition based on documentation of rapid incapacitation.

This will undoubtedly raise a few hackles, let the fur fly.

Read what is available to you, but filter out the B.S. before selecting a defensive pistol cartridge.

[AndyLate]

"Quick stops" are too variable to try to model or quantify. So I choose a load that performs reliably for the worst case. A service caliber and HST, GoldDot, ect, if possible. If you must go smaller pick penetration rather than expanding. ~ SNIP

How do you define service caliber if you don't use velocity, energy, or bullet weight to describe potential performance?

It's an academic question, I admit.

[Todd.K]

This was specifically the work of terminal ballistics experts, not ER docs.

It should be fairly obvious that an ER doc is poorly suited to compare wounds to gel results. They have other priorities.

[Todd.K]

How do you define service caliber if you don't use velocity, energy, or bullet weight to describe potential performance?

Ummm, calibers that are in common service use?

If a new caliber comes out I want to see how it does in FBI testing. I have no interest or knowledge of how many ft/lbs or power factor 327 Federal has.

[1168]

I don't put much weight on energy calculations or Emergency Room doctor opinions. I had the opportunity to investigate a number of shooting incidents where I interviewed the shooter and was able to ask what the attacker did immediately after being shot. I interviewed Emergency Room doctors who treated people who were shot. I also attended autopsies and reviewed other investigative reports. Most of the attackers were shot with handguns. I've heard some wild opinions from ER doctors and surgeons that were contrary to what actually occurred and could have hurt the shooter in criminal court.

There is some use for collecting scientific data, but I have never been attacked by a gelation block or had an ER doctor present when I was attacked. I've seen people in the field within minutes after they were shot. I select my carry ammunition based on documentation of rapid incapacitation.

This will undoubtedly raise a few hackles, let the fur fly.

Read what is available to you, but filter out the B.S. before selecting a defensive pistol cartridge.

You’re the only one to bring up ED Docs so far.

Gel exists so we don’t have to go around shooting hundreds of people to test a new cartridge. Its job is to be consistent.

[T2C]

You’re the only one to bring up ED Docs so far.

Gel exists so we don’t have to go around shooting hundreds of people to test a new cartridge. Its job is to be consistent.

You make a good point about using gelatin instead of alternative testing mediums.

I had the opportunity to be present when gelatin testing was conducted on several handgun and rifle cartridges. One cartridge that performed great in the field did not do well during gelatin testing. Another cartridge that performed beautifully in gelatin did not perform that well in the field.

There is a lot of information available about cartridge performance, especially on the internet. Some of the information is good and some not so good.

[LimeSpoon]

We can expect greater variation in actual tissue as compared to gel; it takes a large sample size to confidently determine whether a clear correlation exists. On my end, I personally trust that IWBA and friends have done their due diligence.

I do have a question. When you say that a cartridge performed beautifully in gelatin but not in the field, do you mean that the bullet behaved differently in the different mediums - that it did not expand or penetrate as well as it should have? Or do you mean that this bullet was deemed to have an ideal set of characteristics by some certain criteria, but in practice was not very effective?

Some manufacturer gel testing seems funky (several of Hornady's rifle tests come to mind), sometimes QC for production is not the same as it is for select samples (e.g. Gold Dot G2), and sometimes agencies have a scoring index that seems rather arbitrary. For example: To my knowledge, the FBI scoring equation weights penetration through all barriers the same in that it combines each sample into an average; it doesn't matter whether the bullet does 14 inches through heavy clothing and 9 inches in auto glass, or 14 inches in auto glass and 9 inches through heavy clothing. It also does not award any additional points for expansion over 0.625 inches, which potentially biases the test against certain bullets that can achieve well in excess of that.

If you'd also have any insights you'd like to share about which particular loadings perform well and which don't, I'd certainly be interested in hearing them.

[T2C]

We can expect greater variation in actual tissue as compared to gel; it takes a large sample size to confidently determine whether a clear correlation exists. On my end, I personally trust that IWBA and friends have done their due diligence.

I do have a question. When you say that a cartridge performed beautifully in gelatin but not in the field, do you mean that the bullet behaved differently in the different mediums - that it did not expand or penetrate as well as it should have? Or do you mean that this bullet was deemed to have an ideal set of characteristics by some certain criteria, but in practice was not very effective?

Some manufacturer gel testing seems funky (several of Hornady's rifle tests come to mind), sometimes QC for production is not the same as it is for select samples (e.g. Gold Dot G2), and sometimes agencies have a scoring index that seems rather arbitrary. For example: To my knowledge, the FBI scoring equation weights penetration through all barriers the same in that it combines each sample into an average; it doesn't matter whether the bullet does 14 inches through heavy clothing and 9 inches in auto glass, or 14 inches in auto glass and 9 inches through heavy clothing. It also does not award any additional points for expansion over 0.625 inches, which potentially biases the test against certain bullets that can achieve well in excess of that.

If you'd also have any insights you'd like to share about which particular loadings perform well and which don't, I'd certainly be interested in hearing them.

The Winchester .38 Special +P Lead HP bullet did not expand in bare gelatin in two attempts. It was used in one local shooting incident and the round expanded well and had sufficient penetration after being fired from a 4" revolver. The attacker was quickly incapacitated. A 9mm 115g +P+ cartridge had great expansion and decent penetration in gelatin, but people I saw shot with it had wounds that passed all the way through the torso. The exit wounds were the same size as the entrance wounds.

I witnessed .38 Special, 9mm and .40 S&W Gold Dot HP ammunition shot into gelatin and it got the same penetration and expansion as I've seen posted on the manufacturer's website. I have not seen anyone who was shot with the Gold Dot HP cartridge.

As a side note, if you are involved in a shooting incident, never, ever talk about the incident with EMT's, Paramedics and especially hospital personnel. If you require treatment, provide information pertinent to treatment and nothing else. I once heard an ER doctor say about a shot suspect "they didn't have to shoot him this many times to stop him. One shot should have done the job." The same doctor was interviewed after treating someone who died in the ER as a result of a motorcycle accident. The motorcycle rider's femoral artery was severed and he bled to death. The doctor told the newspaper reporter "if he had been wearing a helmet, he would still be alive."

Choose your ammunition carefully and choose your words carefully.

[MegademiC]

Everything ive read from docgkr indicates that you should consider the 4 main tests as a whole, and that the 4ld test most accurately replicates what happens in ois. That would/could explain the 115g 9mm, not sure about the 38spl.

[Todd.K]

A 9mm 115g +P+ cartridge had great expansion and decent penetration in gelatin, but people I saw shot with it had wounds that passed all the way through the torso. The exit wounds were the same size as the entrance wounds.

Bare gel or 4ld?