DA/SA unsuitable for the tactical population?

[26 Inf]

That's not the point. So DA is better if the swinger is shooting back?

The example is that at fast moving target requires a fast, accurate shot without moving your sights. This is even more pronounced when the target is human and shoots back. 0,3 s faster is a lifetime in a tactical situation.

Years of cops wearing revolvers/DA/SA doesn't give us any indication of what the best choice is NOW.

That is exactly the point, you choose the thread title DA/SA unsuitable for the tactical population? and you made the assertion: my view is that DA isn't really suited neither for civilians nor the tactical population. I note that your choice wasn't DA/SA unsuitable for the GAMER population or my view is that DA isn't really suited for the GAMER population.

Show me a bad guy that behaves like a Texas Star or a Swinger.

If a shooter for some reason prefers the DA/SA or DAO configuration and practices as they should, they are not at the substantial disadvantage you posit.

Pretty sure about 15% of the shooters coming through our facility (state academy) were using DA/SA when I retired in 2016.

[jrhunden]

Show me a bad guy that behaves like a Texas Star or a Swinger.

No, a Texas Star or a Swinger is predictable, a bad guy is not.

This makes the time difference between DA and SA/striker even more important. Time = bad guy moving.

Maybe the DA first shot doesn't matter for the majority of the "tactical population". If that is the case I believe that's because the requirement for a fast precision shot on a bad guy isn't there.

If your loved ones are being held hostage, and your one chance to save them is a medulla oblongata shot at 10 yards in 1 sec, would you like to have DA or SA first shot capability? Does it matter?

I guess it boils down to need and knowing your weapon systems limitations...

[yoni]

If your loved ones are being held hostage, and your one chance to save them is a medulla oblongata shot at 10 yards in 1 sec, would you like to have DA or SA first shot capability? Does it matter?

I used to be in the business of being ready to do just what you have outlined. Your argument is a Trojan horse. 90% of gun owners and police no matter what platform they are using can't make such a shot.

Second I never have seen a scenario where you had to make such a shot in the split second that you arrive on the scene. These situations run over a period of time, way more time than what I would need to thumb the hammer back on my CZ, so DA/SA is not an issue.

I just set up a drill to check out your scenario, it was a dry drill but I think it gave me valuable feed back.

I set up a mirror at 10 meters, then dry fired using my own head as a target. The red dot of my RMR didn't move when fired DA and it also didn't move when I dropped the hammer SA. I would say that how high I have the RMR turned up would have a bigger impact on accuracy than shooting this scenario DA.

Now my CGW P07 has a great DA smooth all the way through and as I have said many times in SA it has a better trigger than my custom Hi Power.

I have been running my P07 DA first shot all the way out to 25 yards, with no loss of accuracy.

[ST911]

Ernest Langdon - Fear Not the Double Action Shot

https://youtu.be/FsoX26OhDCY
https://youtu.be/GZplH6zreQI
https://youtu.be/nod5qLlSGUM

[lordmorgul]

Yes as said above you would have time to prep condition to SA for any precision shot involving a hostage, or you wouldn’t have time for the shot at all. You can’t make that shot while hostage and threat are moving or bobbing and weaving anyway.

You can also carry the gun prepped to SA condition if it’s got a manual safety and that is another option where your gun may have DA but in practice you may never need that DA shot. I practice it, but wouldn’t expect to use it. In the middle of the night it’s going to be hammer back as it comes out of my safe.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member

[Corse]

Maybe LEM really is the greatest of them all.

[26 Inf]

No, a Texas Star or a Swinger is predictable, a bad guy is not.
shot on each test is the only DA shot, but on several tests those shots are on [/B]
This makes the time difference between DA and SA/striker even more important. Time = bad guy moving.

How does a bad guy move, and how quickly does he pop in and out of cover. World class sprinter speed? Back and forth? How quick? Wide receiver cuts left and right?

One of the best ways to replicate that is during force-on-force training. We used Simunitions for our f-o-f system, we started waaaay back during the time when most officers were using DA/SA pistols and a few still used revolvers. The first pistols we used were a dozen 639's and 3906's permanently converted. Bad guys primarily used (and still primarily use) S&W revolvers.

Seen a lot of way fast head shots made with both DA/SA and DA revolver - one of the scenarios in our core group of scenarios iwas an over-the-shoulder hostage situation.

Maybe the DA first shot doesn't matter for the majority of the "tactical population". If that is the case I believe that's because the requirement for a fast precision shot on a bad guy isn't there.

See above

I guess it boils down to need and knowing your weapon systems limitations...

That it does.

Most of the shooters I've worked with over the years were required to use either issued sidearms, or designated personally purchased weapons. As trainers, we generally mimicked those weapons. I switched from revolver to DA/SA pistol when the majority of students began coming through with those pistols. At the time the SO I was working with still required revolvers. I jumped off the Smith 39 series that I loved onto the Glock when Glocks started showing up in numbers.

Based on all that I am loathe to say that the DA/SA is obsolete and a disadvantage, even though they would no longer be my first choice.

[Ron3]

I timed myself to either draw or start from ready to put the 1st shot into the A zone (I think I was at 10 yds?) A little while back.

If I recall, the difference between a Glock and DA Beretta (Px4) was about .25 seconds.

Is that a big deal in the grand scheme of things? It feels like it when your there staring at the timer display. But in reality it's tough to come up with a realistic scenario where it matters.

DA only, as with a revolver, may be different. I haven't tested myself with this yet. But I'm sure every shot is going to be slower. Whether that matters might be based on the rate of accurate fire I want to achieve. If my goal is two shots a second it doesn't matter. But at 3 yds four or five shots can be fired with A/B hits in a second using a single action or striker fired gun. I can't achieve that with a revolver or DA only pistol.

At least I doubt it. I'll have to give that a try.

Either way, I enjoy the extra safety margin of the DA first shot pistol.

[T2C]

I timed myself to either draw or start from ready to put the 1st shot into the A zone (I think I was at 10 yds?) A little while back.

If I recall, the difference between a Glock and DA Beretta (Px4) was about .25 seconds.

Is that a big deal in the grand scheme of things? It feels like it when your there staring at the timer display. But in reality it's tough to come up with a realistic scenario where it matters.

DA only, as with a revolver, may be different. I haven't tested myself with this yet. But I'm sure every shot is going to be slower. Whether that matters might be based on the rate of accurate fire I want to achieve. If my goal is two shots a second it doesn't matter. But at 3 yds four or five shots can be fired with A/B hits in a second using a single action or striker fired gun. I can't achieve that with a revolver or DA only pistol.

At least I doubt it. I'll have to give that a try.

Either way, I enjoy the extra safety margin of the DA first shot pistol.

If you put in the time with whatever handgun you select to carry, you can do quite well with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhcam2CpTw