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Thread: DA/SA unsuitable for the tactical population?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhunden View Post
    An example from the world of USPSA: If engaging a fast top swinger, would you like to do it with a DA pull or a SA/striker pull?
    Is the swinger shooting back?

    You've answered the question for you. Don't try answering it for everyone.

    Thank goodness the decade of LEO's who largely carried DA/SA auto's didn't know how screwed they were, not to mention those currently running DA/SA pistols.

    The money shot is the first shot. The mistake a lot of people carrying DA/SA pistols make is not shooting enough first shot DA. Instead many kind of limp through the DA to get to the SA. Bet they won't be doing that in a gun fight.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 08-28-18 at 18:29.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    The mistake a lot of people carrying DA/SA pistols make is not shooting enough first shot DA. Instead many kind of limp through the DA to get to the SA. Bet they won't be doing that in a gun fight.
    On point, as usual.

    OP, the fact that you have bothered to use a timer likely means you practice enough that it wouldn’t matter. The fact that most users don’t own a shot timer also means it wouldn’t matter in their use.

    Humans are more important than hardware.
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    Former Action Guy
    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhunden View Post
    I see some instructors advocating a DA/SA pistol for CCW, because the DA pull reduce the risk for NDs, and give you time to evaluate the situation before the hammer falls. Many agencys also issue a DA/SA pistol.
    ……………………………..…:/
    Which instructors are advocating DA/SA pistols to reduce the probability of a Negligent Discharge? I would like to read some of their material and their reasons for coming to that conclusion.

    I was present on two occasions in which a person armed with a DA/SA pistol with an incredibly heavy DA pull weight had a negligent discharge. Thankfully, no one was injured. In both cases it was a training/competency issue.
    Train 2 Win

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Which instructors are advocating DA/SA pistols to reduce the probability of a Negligent Discharge? I would like to read some of their material and their reasons for coming to that conclusion.

    I was present on two occasions in which a person armed with a DA/SA pistol with an incredibly heavy DA pull weight had a negligent discharge. Thankfully, no one was injured. In both cases it was a training/competency issue.
    Ernest Langdon.
    "Knowledge without experience is just information"--Mark Twain

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  5. #15
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    Re: The safety of the long, heavy, DA pull.

    Three things need to exist before the finger goes onto the trigger in a 'tactical' situation: 1) target id'ed as threat; 2) sights/muzzle on target; 3) decision to fire. Absent any one of these three elements your finger needs to be outside the trigger guard, not on the trigger.

    Even though I've taught that for years, I've seen enough officers during simulator or force-on-force training to know that officers often fudge a little.

    It is in those situations that I can legitimately see someone considering the longer, heavier DA trigger to be an advantage.

    Generally one of three conditions exists when someone has an ND: 1) startle; 2) clench when falling/stunbling; 3) flex-reflex/sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion.

    It is not too simplistic to believe that a longer, heavier trigger is more likely to prevent an ND in such circumstances than a shorter, lighter trigger.

    Notice, I said 'less likely' not 'won't.'

    That most definitely does not mean it is okay for you to run around with yourfinger on the trigger if you have a DA/SA or DAO pistol.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Re: The safety of the long, heavy, DA pull.

    Three things need to exist before the finger goes onto the trigger in a 'tactical' situation: 1) target id'ed as threat; 2) sights/muzzle on target; 3) decision to fire. Absent any one of these three elements your finger needs to be outside the trigger guard, not on the trigger.

    Even though I've taught that for years, I've seen enough officers during simulator or force-on-force training to know that officers often fudge a little.

    It is in those situations that I can legitimately see someone considering the longer, heavier DA trigger to be an advantage.

    Generally one of three conditions exists when someone has an ND: 1) startle; 2) clench when falling/stunbling; 3) flex-reflex/sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion.

    It is not too simplistic to believe that a longer, heavier trigger is more likely to prevent an ND in such circumstances than a shorter, lighter trigger.

    Notice, I said 'less likely' not 'won't.'

    That most definitely does not mean it is okay for you to run around with yourfinger on the trigger if you have a DA/SA or DAO pistol.
    For myself, I like a consistent trigger pull. DA or SA is fine, the DA/SA thing is not for me. Of course if it's all I had to work with, I'd train for acceptable proficiency with it, but never enjoyed that set up. One or the other!
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Is the swinger shooting back?
    That's not the point. So DA is better if the swinger is shooting back?

    The example is that at fast moving target requires a fast, accurate shot without moving your sights. This is even more pronounced when the target is human and shoots back. 0,3 s faster is a lifetime in a tactical situation.

    Years of cops wearing revolvers/DA/SA doesn't give us any indication of what the best choice is NOW.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhunden View Post
    That's not the point. So DA is better if the swinger is shooting back?

    The example is that at fast moving target requires a fast, accurate shot without moving your sights. This is even more pronounced when the target is human and shoots back. 0,3 s faster is a lifetime in a tactical situation.

    Years of cops wearing revolvers/DA/SA doesn't give us any indication of what the best choice is NOW.
    You are projecting your inabilities on others. Thats not how it works.
    If you dry fire DA for 20 minutes a day for a week, then go time yourself, you wont be wondering ing about this anymore.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    You are projecting your inabilities on others. Thats not how it works.
    Yes, I am. But I can do an el pres in about 5-5,5 s with A zone hits, and DS from 10 yards in 1,3 s consistently. This is with a DA weapon (Shadow 2). These times don't differ dramatically from shooting SA/striker (Glock 17). Of course target discrimination is not a part of these times...

    On a confirmed hostile target, when you have to shoot accurately from the extended ready right now, DA IS slower than SA/striker. At least according to my abilities...

  10. #20
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    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    In the middle ages, this was a point of argument. Which is about as relevant to daily life, as this talk of times for shooting in DA verse SA or striker.

    That is unless we are talking about competition.

    Bottom line to surviving a real life gunfight is awareness, tactics, shot placement .If you violate any 1 of the 3, you reduce your chance of going home. If you violate 2 of the 3, if you face a determined bad guy you will probably not go home. If you violate all 3, then your survival comes down to pure luck.

    If you have the latest hi capacity so called best caliber, zero recoil, with the best super bullets that mushroom to 95 caliber, you will still get killed if you allow a bad guy to walk up behind you with his RG 22 cal revolver and he shoots you in the back of the head.

    I have gone with CZ CGW P07 with RMR as my go to carry pistol.
    For the following reasons.

    I can be lazy and for a fast trip out to the store, I will just put the pistol IWB without a holster. I would not do the same with a Glock.

    The CZ out of the box is more accurate than my $5000 custom Hi Power and the CZ can mount a RMR.

    The SA on the CZ is better than the action on my custom Hi Power.

    The CZ is lighter than my Hi Power, so easier to carry.

    So let's say I mess up and because I am having a bad day I let a bad guy get close to me 10 meters down to let's say 7 meters.

    They wouldn't get closer than that even on my worse day.

    I observe a weapon in the persons hands and it is clear I am the target of their bad intentions. I pull my CZ and open fire. Let's say for the sake of this thread, it takes me a few extra thousands of a second for my DA gun to go bang over what a SA/striker gun can do.

    I have at that point in time seized the initiative from the bad guy and have force him to react to my actions, which is going to take him over a second best case for him to react. But wait, we have to add into the time the fact that they now are getting accurate center mass hits.

    My training will have me fire into his body and then transition up to his head. Game over.

    But if we take the same situation and he walks up to me and sticks a gun in my face and starts shooting. Then no pistol, no supper latest death ray hollowpoint can make up for my lack of awareness and tactics.

    It will then be down to luck and the fact I will never give up, I will do my best to fight out of the tactical hole I dug for myself.

    Now how many angels are on the head of that pin?

    Does it really matter?

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