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Thread: M4 replaces Tavor in Israeli Commando Brigade

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Safari View Post
    So, here's the kicker: Why wouldn't they produce a local version of the M4? The info contained in the TDP is pretty much public knowledge if only "unofficially." It's not like the IDF couldn't produce a BCM or DD-grade rifle.
    Could be NIH syndrome. Could be that they have so many AR-15s/XM16s/XM16E1s/M16s/M16A1s/whatever that they never felt a need to manufacture their own. The IDF may feel that a new rifle had to have been developed to deal specifically with Israel's unique strategic situation. Plus they have IWI/IMI already making guns for the export market. Maybe because they're afraid that making an unlicensed copy (like 99% of the US domestic market for ARs) might chap Congress and making a licensed copy might run into issues with paying the US during another arms embargo. But I don't know.
    " For Augustus, and after him Tiberius, more interested in establishing and increasing their own power than in promoting the public good, began to disarm the Roman people (in order to make them more passive under their tyranny)[.] "
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    Could be NIH syndrome. Could be that they have so many AR-15s/XM16s/XM16E1s/M16s/M16A1s/whatever that they never felt a need to manufacture their own. The IDF may feel that a new rifle had to have been developed to deal specifically with Israel's unique strategic situation. Plus they have IWI/IMI already making guns for the export market. Maybe because they're afraid that making an unlicensed copy (like 99% of the US domestic market for ARs) might chap Congress and making a licensed copy might run into issues with paying the US during another arms embargo. But I don't know.
    I suspect you're correct. The Uzi and the Galil were invented out of necessity. Could it be that the Tavor simply carries on a long tradition of pride in having a domstically-produced front line weapon? This is why I say a lot of it is politics. One could argue which rifle is better tactically, but the Tavor clearly has the edge politically.


    W.I. Thomas: "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences".

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post

    If Israel takes American made M16 then we can use aid money to buy them.
    And that is probably the main factor.

    Do you want to build your own house OR do you want to BUY a house with money that we will give you?

    The Galil would probably have seen a refinement in design over time, but with FREE M-16s being the alternative, nobody was going to do it.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  4. #24
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    I have been tied up with work and didn't have time to think about this on the reason why.

    Yamam the best anti terror unit in Israel didn't go with the Tavor and stayed with the Commando.

    The 4 units that make up the commando brigade are not tier 1 units, at best tier 1.5 lets say.

    Yamam is the best beyond IDF teir 1 units which are Metkal, Naval commandos 13, Sheldag.

    So we have these lesser units and we want to build them up, so we let them carry the same rifle as the big boys Yamam.

    Don't discount the psychological bragging points of "We are so good we need the same rifle as Yamam."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle View Post
    Yup, I posted this in another thread, just the one's I can think of off the top of my head:

    .... the UK issues their conventional troops the L85 IW bullpup, their SOF units get Colt Canada C8 carbines (a US M4 variant), Aussies issue their conventional troops the STG-77 bullpup while their SOF units get Colt M4's (possibly Colt Canada C8's I forget which), the Kiwis issue their conventional forces the F88 Steyr bullpup and their SOF units like the Aussies get Colt M4's and or Colt Canada C8's.
    I thought Kiwis just went with the LMT MARSL

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  6. #26
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    Hey Yoni,

    Can you highlight some of the reasons why the M4/Commando is clearly better than the Tavor for anti-terror work?

    Perhaps start with what is special about that mission vs general issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post

    I have always said the Tavor is a good general issue rifle, but for special ops it doesn't measure up. I don't think this is a slam against the Tavor, just an honest
    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    But for anti terror work give me a Commando type rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I have been tied up with work and didn't have time to think about this on the reason why.

    Yamam the best anti terror unit in Israel didn't go with the Tavor and stayed with the Commando.
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  7. #27
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    The ergonomics of the M4/commando is better for the mission. The mag change is more natural and I have practiced the mag change with the Tavor and was never able to match the M4. In room to room you just may have to go to using your rifle as an impact weapon M4 has better ergonomics for this. M4 also is just more accurate.

    Tavor is great for general issue to the rest of the troops. Easy to get in and out of jeeps, easy to hold pointing down the street at riots due to the weight being up against your shoulder, easy in and out of tanks for tank crews, easy to get in and out of the bus on the way back home.

    My brain doesn't want to work, I am ending a 20 hour work day. So I am sure I will have to edit this tomorrow.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    The ergonomics of the M4/commando is better for the mission. The mag change is more natural and I have practiced the mag change with the Tavor and was never able to match the M4. In room to room you just may have to go to using your rifle as an impact weapon M4 has better ergonomics for this. M4 also is just more accurate.

    Tavor is great for general issue to the rest of the troops. Easy to get in and out of jeeps, easy to hold pointing down the street at riots due to the weight being up against your shoulder, easy in and out of tanks for tank crews, easy to get in and out of the bus on the way back home.

    My brain doesn't want to work, I am ending a 20 hour work day. So I am sure I will have to edit this tomorrow.
    That's most of it, but M4 suppresses better which is the biggest consideration for any SOF type units. The linkage on any bull pup means a less than desirable trigger and if you go messing with it you sacrifice "drop test" security specifications.

    Bullpups have many advantages over conventional rifle designs but they are usually a specialized rifle. Quick change barrels are a neat trick IF you are going to actually need such a feature but most won't. Compact package is the main advantage as you noted.

    Really the only weakness of the M4 is the buffer tube which is usually the first thing to break during drop tests and renders the rifle unusable, but even with that it is probably the king of all small arms. AKs, AR-18 and FNC operating systems are interesting but I've not seen one yet that "hands down" beats the M4 system in all areas.

    Valmets and SIGs come close but usually at three times the cost.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    Aussie regular forces use F88s. Aussie SOF use Colt M4s.
    Well we're both incorrect. Just searched, it appears the Aussies purchased F90 assault rifles, which is an evolution of the EF88, which was an evolution of the STG-77. All AUG variants.

    https://www.army-technology.com/proj...assault-rifle/



    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    Kiwis have replaced their F88s with LMTs. Their SOF also use LMTs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    I thought Kiwis just went with the LMT MARSL
    Didn't realize they replaced their bullpups for the MARS-L, that is badass and good for LMT.

    Can't find anything on the web stating that NZSAS got rid of their Colt M4's.
    "If gun owners defy Assault Weapons ban, the government has nukes." — Eric Swalwell D-CA

    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon 10/30/18

  10. #30
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    Most bullpups are just damn uncomfortable to operate

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