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Thread: Man killed carrying inside his own house

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    Yup. That was bad training and bad decision making combined.

    The hardest, and best, lesson I ever learned was to slow calls down when I have the chance. Time isn't always on our side, but when it is, I can make much better decisions when I am not rushing. This kid had no concept of that.
    Unfortunately common sense is harder to come by nowadays. You can teach problem solving and best practice standards but common sense not so much sadly.


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  2. #242
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    I believe today's societal conditioning that gun=bad guy has a lot to do with it, too. If I had shot everyone I had encountered who had a gun when I was working I would be more famous (infamous?) than Wyatt Earp. It has been 15 years since I wore a badge and things have changed a lot since then.
    Psalm 34:19

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  3. #243
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    What I figured was the case, but not going to change much I'd think either. It's my understanding that most LEOs come to realize what they arrive to find often does not match with dispatch sent them to:

    Officer Who Shot Atatiana Jefferson Wasn't Told It Was A Welfare Check

    Fort Worth police were dispatched to an "open structure" call, not a welfare check, according to Chief Ed Kraus.

    Fort Worth, TX – The call that Fort Worth Police Officer Aaron Dean responded to the night he fatally shot Atatiana Jefferson was dispatched as a potential burglary report – not as a welfare check like her neighbor intended.

    "The information came from the neighbor to the call-takers and while it was relayed to the dispatch, it was determined to be an open structure call," Fort Worth Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus explained during a press conference on Tuesday, according to CNN.

    As a result, the officers responded to the call differently than they would have if the call would have been dispatched as a welfare check.

    Cont:

    https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmat...8w8WxV5l3JbU7g
    - Will

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  4. #244
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    Will,

    I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.

    I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.

    When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.

    Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.

  5. #245
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    One thing that I had done over the years was to contact the complainant, when possible, before checking a structure or responding to a call where it is not obvious a disturbance or break in is actively occurring. Once the exits of a residence were covered, I would announce police were present when challenging a person inside a dwelling. There were quite a few occasions where the homeowner was armed and no one was shot. At times, that required dispatch contacting the homeowner by telephone to confirm we were in fact the police.

    If a homeowner just awakened, I wasn't surprised if they were a little confused and they did not immediately respond to direction. It was not unusual for a homeowner to be armed it they felt threatened prior to LE arrival. It was not unusual for a homeowner to be a bit defiant, after all they were in their own home.

    A LEO has to be on their toes and ready to react to a lethal threat when responding to open door calls. It is also important to understand the homeowner's point of view when responding to a call, the homeowner is inside their residence and they are not immediately responding to verbal direction.
    Train 2 Win

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    Will,

    I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.

    I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.

    When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.

    Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.
    The wisest approach to policing I’ve seen stated. I am sure very many police do similar since mistaken shootings are not happening every day in every town. Treat people you encounter as you would want your family treated. Escalate as needed based on observed behavior, changing circumstances.

    But even a few mistaken killings can put folks on edge. What was once unimaginable is suddenly manifest as very possible.
    It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! ... Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry in an address at St. John’s Church, Richmond, Virginia, on March 23, 1775.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    Will,

    I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.

    I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.

    When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.

    Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.
    I said that above as my understanding yes. Or, the original reason for the call was accurate, and it something totally different by the time you arrive, I'm sure is also a common thing.
    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com

    Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

    www.OptimalSWAT.com


    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  8. #248
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    Sometimes dispatchers don’t really tell you what you are getting into.

    A good habit is if you get a vibe, call dispatch on your phone and find out if people are fighting or verbally arguing, if grandma lives alone and has dementia and a loaded Luger, etc etc.

    Can save you so much grief.

    That said, there is no way to police without getting injured at some point.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Sometimes dispatchers don’t really tell you what you are getting into.

    A good habit is if you get a vibe, call dispatch on your phone and find out if people are fighting or verbally arguing, if grandma lives alone and has dementia and a loaded Luger, etc etc.

    Can save you so much grief.

    That said, there is no way to police without getting injured at some point.
    It is a crime that police need to do that, but it is true.

    I did a vehicle stop class for an agency once. Pointed out that if you thought about it, the old CYMBALS format (Color/Year/Make/Body/Additional - damage, logos. etc./License/Occupants) was the best way to identify a vehicle at a distance. I pointed out that at a distance the first thing you see is light vehicle, dark, vehicle, down through the list ending with pointing out that the tag was generally the last thing you could identify on a stop, and also the most easily changed. I encouraged then to at least give the vehicle description on their stops. Later feedback from the officers attending was 'dispatch just wanted the tag.' Instead of going in and explaining the rationale and asking/demanding the dispatchers STFU and do their jobs, what do we do? Just give the tag.

    Same thing on DV's, in most jurisdiction an officer isn't certain where 322 East Polk is on the block. Easy to be one of two residences off. Instead of putzing around in the dark we suggested to dispatchers that they ask the caller to describe the residence, and what's parked out front. Great reviews for the class all across the state - it was a grant thing. Did anyone actually put it into practice? Nooooo.

    Dispatchers and cops, the never ending story.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Sedition, a Free Press and Personal Rule, The Kansas City Star, May 1918

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    It is a crime that police need to do that, but it is true.

    I did a vehicle stop class for an agency once. Pointed out that if you thought about it, the old CYMBALS format (Color/Year/Make/Body/Additional - damage, logos. etc./License/Occupants) was the best way to identify a vehicle at a distance. I pointed out that at a distance the first thing you see is light vehicle, dark, vehicle, down through the list ending with pointing out that the tag was generally the last thing you could identify on a stop, and also the most easily changed. I encouraged then to at least give the vehicle description on their stops. Later feedback from the officers attending was 'dispatch just wanted the tag.' Instead of going in and explaining the rationale and asking/demanding the dispatchers STFU and do their jobs, what do we do? Just give the tag.

    Same thing on DV's, in most jurisdiction an officer isn't certain where 322 East Polk is on the block. Easy to be one of two residences off. Instead of putzing around in the dark we suggested to dispatchers that they ask the caller to describe the residence, and what's parked out front. Great reviews for the class all across the state - it was a grant thing. Did anyone actually put it into practice? Nooooo.

    Dispatchers and cops, the never ending story.
    Yes, even in the academy all they taught was give a tag number but as an FTO I taught my trainees year/color/make/model and made them stick to it every time. While on patrol I would make them stop the car in the middle of a block and tell me the street name and block number. After a while it became second nature to where they always knew where they were. This training worked great for us patrol officers but getting dispatchers to be accurate and specific was a whole other animal.
    Psalm 34:19

    To argue with a person who renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. ~ Thomas Paine

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