Do NFA rules apply for SHTF?

[Gödel]

Who said this exactly, or are you just referencing a mindset you perceive in the "prepper" community as a whole? As for me, this teeters on the whole anti-gun vibe of "Why does anyone need an AR-15". But as for your question, having a carbine and ammunition in which to load it with would be highly advantageous to people who find themselves suddenly in a SHTF/WROL/et al. situation.





What kind of disaster are we discussing here; the loss of someone's job, an automobile accident, the collapse of the petrodollar, geomagnetic disturbance?

We witnessed ammo shortages during the last administration as a result of panic buying that was a direct result of anti-gun rhetoric from the then President, his AG, the MSM, and various other parties to include Bloomburg's Mom's Demand Action, Everytown for Gun Safety, and Gabby Gifford's Americans for Responsible Solutions and Giffords gun control origanizations. So people acquire and stockpile large quantities of ammunition for various reasons to include; range and training ammo, self-defense, future ammo restrictions, future tax, an out in right ban, SHTF, bartering, et al.

Professional firearm instruction is a no-brainer as one would require the knowledge and skill to effectively employ a firearm of any kind to defend themselves, their loved ones, their home/shelter, and life sustaining supplies after said disaster.




Yeah I don't see what barrel length has got to do with the equation other than from maybe a concealability standpoint. Suppressors have multi benefits. One can have stockpiles of antibiotics, food, water, agriculture supplies, etc. but the trick is they will have to have the means and willingness to protect such implements from desperate armed aggressors that will stop at nothing to feed themselves for just one more day.

What I was attempting to ask is how anyone thinks a lot weapons and ammo are going to make much a difference in any sort of longer term situation - especially when stuff like FA come up. As I pointed out, there is no fortress or paradise to defend - at the point you are pumping out lots of rifle, you and your prep supplies are so conspicuous that you don't have the firepower to keep them. That isn't an anti-gun sentiment, just a question of tactics. I was a military officer and went through two North American survival schools - there is no place that is going to be safe and provide food just because a handful people have a bunch of rifles and unlimited ammo.


And the only reason we had ammo shortages is because of ridiculous conspiracy mongering before and after elections, not because there was any actual threat to ammo. It was just the kind of behavior the NRA likes to whip up donations. All we did was jack up prices, make ammo scarce and lower the quality. At the same time of the shortages ammo was cheap and plentiful in Canada - it was like we were taxing ourselves with stupidity.


So your answer about the use of tactical weapons doesn't really answer my question because it assumes a sort of vague situation where a small group expects to attack or defend some sort of resource laden fort - and those don't really exist in the US. It just seems like zombie fantasy stuff rather than a realistic and sober assessment. Same with special bugout vehicles - when everyone is trying to get out of town, there aren't going to be any backwoods trails left that aren't already clogged with trucks that couldn't quite handle the terrain.

[daddyusmaximus]

I think the people who consider the collapse of the federal American government are in the minority, and the rest of us went on to discuss other uses for scarce dollars. (Or to present other items worth more consideration.)

The federal government does have plans for surviving for years after disasters far, far more involved than any one family or small group can hope to plan for. They'll be here (and, therefore, the rule of law will be here) long after we're gone, disaster or no disaster.

Break the law when you think the government has collapsed, and you'll pay for it when they get back.

1. Yes, the collapse of the federal government is far less likely then what the OP posted about...

HOWEVER, if you want to talk about "other uses for scarce dollars"... go make your own thread...

That's not the question the OP posted about.

2. Yes, you'll pay a price should the gov go away, then come back. Another reason I don't have any illegal stuff... nor plans for it.

[elephant]

Im not a speculator and nor do I participate in panic buying. But in these days, especially now that the Democrats will control the House starting in January, they have already submitted new gun regulation/legislation. I think they just recycle the old proposed bills with new verbiage and change the date. Its already starting to happen. Democrats are already at it again with the push to ban assault weapons or any weapon they think doesn't make us safe. In cases like this, I can see why people stock up on ammunition and LPK's and lowers because a consumer will hope there will be a grandfather clause in any new legislation.

New bills are being proposed to ban assault rifles, ban 80% lowers, hi cap magazines, LPK's, tax ammo, back ground checks on ammo, registration on weapons etc. I will stand behind what I have always said in the past and that is that one day sooner or later, our government will completely ban any weapon not used for hunting purposes only. That way, we technically still have our 2nd Amendment but they get the icing on the cake.


I hear that the BATFE is working on a copier/scanner that can scan all form 4473's and are working on converting 4473's into a digital format. Sooner or later,the feds will have every Form 4473 in a digital format that can be accessed through a computer, alphabetized, categorized and they will be able to look you up and see everything you have purchased in the last 20 years. Its an easy sell, just tell the LGS that they don't have to keep a record for 20 years on site, the digital service is helping them out, but in reality its a national data base.

Remember in early 2000's when it was mandatory that everyone switch to digital cable? Even the government was willing to help you out? Why was the government so concerned with digital cable and digital TV? They weren't! Digital cable meant digital phone lines and digital internet connection! What's easier to monitor? Digital or Analog?

I, personally, consider a assault weapons ban to be a SHTF scenario. Why? Because you and I have invested thousands of dollars, maybe tens of thousands in this hobby. And if one day, its all just going to go away because some people in Washington said so, than I think that is a real SHTF scenario. Nation wide. Just look at our country today, our government under Obama was forcing the gay culture down our children's throats, supporting massive illegal immigration, supporting anti American leaders and embracing Islamic activist who where on a terror watch list, running guns to cartels and spying on just about everyone. Without you and I owning 60% of the worlds firepower, we might see a day where our government conducts clandestine, specops, drone strikes in our own country. They do it in every other country, why not here at home?

I don't know, hopefully that will never happen, but another close look at the Obama administration and it makes you think he was just testing the boundaries. None of those people got in trouble, which leads me to believe the next guy or girl is going to go full power mode!

To me, that is a real TEOTWAWKI or SHTF!

[Jammer Six]

Bugout vehicles makes more sense to me than a four ton mountain of ammo. But the vehicles we own and driver every day will either work or they won't, for exactly the reasons posted. No vtol-amphibs for us.

And I agree-- better to reinforce preps for a disaster with a strong probability of actually happening than to invest in another thousand rounds of armor piercing, air burst incendiary tracer & bug spray ammunition.

What disaster that is varies by location, but I like the assessment that there is no magical fort in the U.S.

[Jammer Six]

I hear that the BATFE is working on a copier/scanner that can scan all form 4473's and are working on converting 4473's into a digital format. Sooner or later,the feds will have every Form 4473 in a digital format that can be accessed through a computer, alphabetized, categorized and they will be able to look you up and see everything you have purchased in the last 20 years. Its an easy sell, just tell the LGS that they don't have to keep a record for 20 years on site, the digital service is helping them out, but in reality its a national data base.

Yeah, no. Try to look up a real estate transaction, a felony conviction, a school transcript or any other important record from the days of paper. They're still on paper. Only. If you're very lucky, they made the jump to microfiche. You might not be old enough to remember microfiche.

At some point, the government simply throws up its hands in despair, claims that the record is old enough that it will never matter and walks away.

Why? Money. The government doesn't have the money for the people to convert that mountain of paper to a digital format.

Until they can cut the amount of time involved in the NICS down to where they can actually enter current data in a timely matter, (the Navy missed six chances to stop a mass shooter from legally purchasing a gun) using current technology, I'm just not worried about anything that happens before, say, ten years from now.

Remember in early 2000's when it was mandatory that everyone switch to digital cable? Even the government was willing to help you out? Why was the government so concerned with digital cable and digital TV? They weren't! Digital cable meant digital phone lines and digital internet connection! What's easier to monitor? Digital or Analog?

Uhm, no. I worked on the effort to get Seattle to pay for those boxes, and I know exactly why they paid for them. They only paid for them because we (citizens, voters) forced them to do so, over their whining, caterwauling and sniveling.

There are, I'm certain, still some of the politicians who were involved who have no idea what they paid for.

[elephant]

Why? Money. The government doesn't have the money for the people to convert that mountain of paper to a digital format.

Your exactly right! That's why they wont be the ones doing it or paying for it! How hard is it for a gun store clerk to feed stacks of form 4473's into a copy machine that will scan each form and save a digital file? Doesn't take much effort, especially if you have several months or even a year to do it. Think about it? The US has plenty of money! Even if we didn't have the money, the US has a AAA credit rating, we can sell treasury bonds overnight to pay for anything! I think its Richo, check them out, I think they are the ones working on a special purpose copy machine that can feed, unfold, scan and refold the form 4473. Hell, they might have a 3rd party company that is lined up to do the work, just have the LGS's drop off all the paper form 4473's at a wharehouse and let the 3rd party contractors do the rest. Its literally that easy! It just takes time!

We got a whole country to enroll in Social Security in 1935 without the aid of technology. In 2016, 11.4 million Americans signed up for Obamacare using a website!

[Jammer Six]

You can buy a scanner at Office Depot for two hundred bucks. There's no mystery there. There certainly isn't any need to develop anything.

They can't keep up with current demand-- so going into the archives and recording them is a pipedream.

[Hmac]

I hear that the BATFE is working on a copier/scanner that can scan all form 4473's and are working on converting 4473's into a digital format. Sooner or later,the feds will have every Form 4473 in a digital format that can be accessed through a computer, alphabetized, categorized and they will be able to look you up and see everything you have purchased in the last 20 years. Its an easy sell, just tell the LGS that they don't have to keep a record for 20 years on site, the digital service is helping them out, but in reality its a national data base.

I must have missed something. I'm not an FFL, but my impression has been that 4473's are retained by the dealer. ATF can look at them or they can and can subpoena them in a criminal investigation. How does the government get their hands on "all 4473's" in order to pursue this scanning and digitization?

[themonk]

I hear that the BATFE is working on a copier/scanner that can scan all form 4473's and are working on converting 4473's into a digital format. Sooner or later,the feds will have every Form 4473 in a digital format that can be accessed through a computer, alphabetized, categorized and they will be able to look you up and see everything you have purchased in the last 20 years. Its an easy sell, just tell the LGS that they don't have to keep a record for 20 years on site, the digital service is helping them out, but in reality its a national data base.

They are already doing this on all gun store audits.

[Moose-Knuckle]

What I was attempting to ask is how anyone thinks a lot weapons and ammo are going to make much a difference in any sort of longer term situation - especially when stuff like FA come up.

How could small-arms and ammunition possibly NOT make a difference for people enduring a long term situation; SHTF/WROL/TEOTWAWKI/etc.?

As I pointed out, there is no fortress or paradise to defend - at the point you are pumping out lots of rifle, you and your prep supplies are so conspicuous that you don't have the firepower to keep them. That isn't an anti-gun sentiment, just a question of tactics. I was a military officer and went through two North American survival schools - there is no place that is going to be safe and provide food just because a handful people have a bunch of rifles and unlimited ammo.

Says who? The breadth and depth of the internet is rife of innumerable scenarios that we wouldn't have the time to even begin to broach here, contingencies abound. Recently I watched an interview on BBC of a thirty something Silicon Valley retiree who cashed out once he learned of some of the tech that is coming down the pipe and will be mainstream in our society in the next ten years. He purchased a private island for himself off the coast of WA and is stockpiling small-arms, ammo, and the related articles. Another gentleman who is a retired SEAL and a published author known to many on this site has read the tea leaves, designed, and built his own yacht that he now lives on to avoid the inevitable unpleasantries here in this country. There is literal information overload out there of people and contingencies.

And the only reason we had ammo shortages is because of ridiculous conspiracy mongering before and after elections, not because there was any actual threat to ammo. It was just the kind of behavior the NRA likes to whip up donations. All we did was jack up prices, make ammo scarce and lower the quality. At the same time of the shortages ammo was cheap and plentiful in Canada - it was like we were taxing ourselves with stupidity.

The reason we had ammo shortages is because of a radical leftist infiltrator in the highest office in the land who pushed the disarmament agenda. His AG's Fast & Furious gun running scheme was not "conspiracy mongering". I guess you don't call the sanctions on imported Russian 7N6 and the attempt to ban domestically manufactured and imported M855 actual threats on ammo. The Democrats and a revised AWB and other anti-2nd Amendment legislation waiting in the wings which included taxing and regulating the sell and accumulation of ammo.

So your answer about the use of tactical weapons doesn't really answer my question because it assumes a sort of vague situation where a small group expects to attack or defend some sort of resource laden fort - and those don't really exist in the US. It just seems like zombie fantasy stuff rather than a realistic and sober assessment. Same with special bugout vehicles - when everyone is trying to get out of town, there aren't going to be any backwoods trails left that aren't already clogged with trucks that couldn't quite handle the terrain.

Do you own semi-automatic small arms?

If so is it just a "hobby" since you don't seem to see the rational use of firearms in self-defense roles? Or perhaps you do own firearms for self-defense but consider discussing firearm use post some collapse to be ridiculous. Then the question that begs to be asked is why you choose to participate in a Disaster, Preparation, and Planning sub-forum on a firearm centric forum with a name sake like M4C?