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Thread: Do NFA rules apply for SHTF?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    I must have missed something. I'm not an FFL, but my impression has been that 4473's are retained by the dealer. ATF can look at them or they can and can subpoena them in a criminal investigation. How does the government get their hands on "all 4473's" in order to pursue this scanning and digitization?
    Its not just a ordinary Xerox copy machine, it also has finger print scanner and keyboard to input information. It will also be able to scan an FFL's current backlog of Form 4473's one at a time by filling a huge tray. When I got my FFL earlier this year, I was told by a ATF agent who inspected my location, that the copy machine would eventually replace all handwritten forms. Right now the Silencer Shop is using basically the same system to remotely file paperwork/mugshot/fingerprints for NFA items. A 4473 is a federal form, they don't need a subpoena to obtain them, the ATF has rights to access to everything a FFL has at any time.

  2. #102
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    Moose Knuckle,

    People on this thread have spoke there mind about me and this topic but you just hit the nail on the head. Right now, people are doing some crazy shit. Like buying islands, building bunkers, building yachts, buying real estate in USVI and stockpiling weapons and ammo- yet people insist that I am living in a fantasy world. This is why I started this thread is to hear thoughts from others. I wasn't insisting that a SHTF scenario would be a massive earthquake or a tsunami or an event like that, sometimes the SHTF scenario is government intervention and regulation/legislation that comes with extreme consequences like 20 year mandatory jail time for having an "assault rifle" or 5 year mandatory for having a high cap magazine.

    The conversations that I hear a lot are about people building F/A unregistered SBR's from 80% lowers complete with optics, PEQ-15's and homemade suppressors using the Surefire Warden as the donor mount. These are not just some toothless rednecks, these are CPA's, Lawyers, and professionals who anticipate something bad going down. I don't know what but I know its on peoples mind, that sooner or later, something is going down and we need to be prepared for it.

    There is writing on the wall that really point to national registry, permanent bans, followed by nation wide confiscation or severe punishment in non compliance. I think most people are in denial or oblivious to the signs pointing toward that event. And I do NOT think the military is on our side, don't get me wrong, I support them, and they DO fight for peoples rights, just not ours- they will obey orders and so will LEO's.

    I think a lot of people including most people on this forum will turn in there guns if that comes to be- I say that because of how many people on M4C refuse to build a 16" gun for fear that it is too grey area, so they build a 16.25 or 16.50 just to be safe. Most people are willing to drink a little too much and drive home or travel with a little grass in there possession, yet scared to go to a public range with a unregistered SBR for fear that some ATF who is nowhere around will somehow find out. And I see that a lot! More and more people today who own unregistered SBR's that they built and take them to public ranges, post pics on IG and Facebook like its no big deal. That's why I asked this question. I personally do NOT participate in breaking the NFA laws. I honor, respect and cherish the law!

    Look at NJ right now, they are supposedly going door to door looking for hicap mags. Just think if the protesters in Paris had AR's. They are literally spraying liquified cow shit inside of government buildings with tractors and burning down everything. We are living is some uncertain times.

  3. #103
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by elephant View Post
    I, personally, consider a assault weapons ban to be a SHTF scenario. Why? Because you and I have invested thousands of dollars, maybe tens of thousands in this hobby. And if one day, its all just going to go away because some people in Washington said so, than I think that is a real SHTF scenario. Nation wide. Just look at our country today, our government under Obama was forcing the gay culture down our children's throats, supporting massive illegal immigration, supporting anti American leaders and embracing Islamic activist who where on a terror watch list, running guns to cartels and spying on just about everyone. Without you and I owning 60% of the worlds firepower, we might see a day where our government conducts clandestine, specops, drone strikes in our own country. They do it in every other country, why not here at home?

    I don't know, hopefully that will never happen, but another close look at the Obama administration and it makes you think he was just testing the boundaries. None of those people got in trouble, which leads me to believe the next guy or girl is going to go full power mode!

    To me, that is a real TEOTWAWKI or SHTF!
    The 2nd Amendment is the linchpin to our Republic.

    For me at least, it's not the loss of a monetary investment that is unacceptable but rather the taking away of the means in which I have to defend my family and myself. I've always felt that Ruby Ridge and Waco as well as PATCON were tests to see how far they could push. Every time they have a favorable party in place they seem to test the boundaries.
    "In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf


    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon 10/30/18

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by elephant View Post
    Moose Knuckle,

    People on this thread have spoke there mind about me and this topic but you just hit the nail on the head. Right now, people are doing some crazy shit. Like buying islands, building bunkers, building yachts, buying real estate in USVI and stockpiling weapons and ammo- yet people insist that I am living in a fantasy world. This is why I started this thread is to hear thoughts from others. I wasn't insisting that a SHTF scenario would be a massive earthquake or a tsunami or an event like that, sometimes the SHTF scenario is government intervention and regulation/legislation that comes with extreme consequences like 20 year mandatory jail time for having an "assault rifle" or 5 year mandatory for having a high cap magazine.

    The conversations that I hear a lot are about people building F/A unregistered SBR's from 80% lowers complete with optics, PEQ-15's and homemade suppressors using the Surefire Warden as the donor mount. These are not just some toothless rednecks, these are CPA's, Lawyers, and professionals who anticipate something bad going down. I don't know what but I know its on peoples mind, that sooner or later, something is going down and we need to be prepared for it.

    There is writing on the wall that really point to national registry, permanent bans, followed by nation wide confiscation or severe punishment in non compliance. I think most people are in denial or oblivious to the signs pointing toward that event. And I do NOT think the military is on our side, don't get me wrong, I support them, and they DO fight for peoples rights, just not ours- they will obey orders and so will LEO's.

    I think a lot of people including most people on this forum will turn in there guns if that comes to be- I say that because of how many people on M4C refuse to build a 16" gun for fear that it is too grey area, so they build a 16.25 or 16.50 just to be safe. Most people are willing to drink a little too much and drive home or travel with a little grass in there possession, yet scared to go to a public range with a unregistered SBR for fear that some ATF who is nowhere around will somehow find out. And I see that a lot! More and more people today who own unregistered SBR's that they built and take them to public ranges, post pics on IG and Facebook like its no big deal. That's why I asked this question. I personally do NOT participate in breaking the NFA laws. I honor, respect and cherish the law!

    Look at NJ right now, they are supposedly going door to door looking for hicap mags. Just think if the protesters in Paris had AR's. They are literally spraying liquified cow shit inside of government buildings with tractors and burning down everything. We are living is some uncertain times.
    As a general rule we should all be prepared for 6 months to a year of whatever may come along. There are lots of pieces to that like food, cash, ammo and weapons. Some like food and water are far more important that guns and ammo. But if you have your ducks in a row and not living in a fantasy land you should be OK.

    Now if its an EMP or solar event, all bets are off and we are all essentially done so do whatever you need to do.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by elephant View Post
    Look at NJ right now, they are supposedly going door to door looking for hicap mags.
    Post any example of this actually having happened. A single one will do.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gödel View Post
    Post any example of this actually having happened. A single one will do.
    What does it matter? It's the law, yes or no?

    They COULD CHOOSE to do so at any time, to make an example out of any person etc.....If it's "No big deal" then why is it THE LAW? Obviously, someone thinks it IS a big deal and when they decide to enforce it, it WILL be a big deal to anyone busted.

    You can't pretend that just because it's not being actively enforced that it's meaningless. If you really think that way, then parade yourself to the next session of the New Jersey State Legislature and start handing out PMAGS on the steps of the Capital and see what happens.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    What does it matter? It's the law, yes or no?

    They COULD CHOOSE to do so at any time, to make an example out of any person etc.....If it's "No big deal" then why is it THE LAW? Obviously, someone thinks it IS a big deal and when they decide to enforce it, it WILL be a big deal to anyone busted.

    You can't pretend that just because it's not being actively enforced that it's meaningless. If you really think that way, then parade yourself to the next session of the New Jersey State Legislature and start handing out PMAGS on the steps of the Capital and see what happens.
    No, they can't do it, because of the Fourth Amendment. NJ didn't pass a law that allows LE to ignore the 4th just like Prohibition didn't make search and seizure of alcohol suddenly legal back then.

    That has nothing to do with whether the ban on mags is right or wrong, but a law you don't agree with doesn't automatically imply that the entire Bill of Rights evaporated.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gödel View Post
    No, they can't do it, because of the Fourth Amendment. NJ didn't pass a law that allows LE to ignore the 4th just like Prohibition didn't make search and seizure of alcohol suddenly legal back then.

    That has nothing to do with whether the ban on mags is right or wrong, but a law you don't agree with doesn't automatically imply that the entire Bill of Rights evaporated.
    True enough. Although, many would argue that the law banning firearms/components in question is a violation of the Second Amendment. If they can violate the Second Amendment, what's to prevent them from violating the Fourth as well? So while the "entire Bill of Rights" may not have evaporated....parts of it are certainly beginning to make a solid to liquid to gas transformation it would seem.....

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gödel View Post
    No, they can't do it, because of the Fourth Amendment. NJ didn't pass a law that allows LE to ignore the 4th just like Prohibition didn't make search and seizure of alcohol suddenly legal back then.

    That has nothing to do with whether the ban on mags is right or wrong, but a law you don't agree with doesn't automatically imply that the entire Bill of Rights evaporated.
    You are right that the NJ state police aren't likely to "go door to door" searching for "high capacity" magazines. But Esq is equally correct that they could.

    Door to door MIGHT be excessive -- but door to door searches for firearms HAVE already happened elsewhere in the US, in the 21st Century, without search warrants. Yes, the courts eventually declared such searches and the confiscation of firearms by executive order to be unlawful -- but fat lot of good that ruling did for the people whose homes were searched and whose firearms were taken (many of which were damaged, lost, or simply never returned because the owners couldn't prove ownership).

    If New Jersey state police or some local department in the state, decided they wanted to aggressively enforce the ban, they couldn't legally go door-to-door but it wouldn't be hard to find a liberal judge to issue search warrants based on "probable cause" using ownership of firearms that originally came with such magazines combined with the owner not having turned in such a magazine. NJ has records of everyone who owns an AR or AK, and records of anyone who turned in any "high capacity" magazines. An honest judge might not consider that sufficient probable cause, but you know damn well they have judges who would and the cops know which judges will issue warrants without looking too closely at the probable cause affidavit.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    True enough. Although, many would argue that the law banning firearms/components in question is a violation of the Second Amendment. If they can violate the Second Amendment, what's to prevent them from violating the Fourth as well? So while the "entire Bill of Rights" may not have evaporated....parts of it are certainly beginning to make a solid to liquid to gas transformation it would seem.....
    Those that would make that argument hold the illogical belief that the 2nd Amendment offers an absolute right to everyone within US borders to arm themselves as much as they want, and that has NEVER been true. The Founding Fathers didn't believe prisoners got to keep weapons, for instance.

    The entire BoR is subject to limitations and regulations. You don't get 20 wives because you have freedom of religion, you don't get to incite violence because of freedom of speech, and you don't get to keep smallpox because you have the right to arms. Where the line is drawn is a point of debate, not a clear line.

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