What is the fascination with a LPVO on an AR?

[AKDoug]

For my potential engagements, with my carbine, a RDS will get the job done just fine. I am not a police officer, I am not a military combatant, and the distances I can see from either of my houses is well under 50 yards. The ability to quickly used my backup sights through my RDS also make it more robust and failsafe...for me.

I started my serious training and use of a carbine with a Trijicon TR-24. It failed one magazine into my first real carbine class. Actually, something internally failed and my 4x portion of my scope resulted in 14" misses at 100 yds.. dial it back to 1x and it was on again. I just ran the class at 1x and did just fine. LPVO's have come a long ways since that time, but I still have that nagging doubt in the back of my mind. One thing I really didn't like about the Trijicon was that it made using iron sights as back up a real chore.

I switched to RDS sights on my carbines and haven't really looked back. I have carbines with LPVO's that I use at longer distances because it's fun to shoot steel, but they haven't replaced my goto defensive carbine yet.

[Coal Dragger]

I’ve used more or less all the sighting solutions discussed here in one form or another, the ACOG while in the Marine Corps as well as a personally owned Aimpoint because my command allowed it.

Both were good optics and I wouldn’t feel like I was getting shafted being issued a carbine with either setup if I was still in. I went to Iraq in 2004 and for most of my tour the Aimpoint made more sense to use because we were in built up areas more often than not. Had I instead gone to Afghanistan the ACOG would probably have been more useful most of the time.

My current and probably favorite carbine, the one I would grab if I could take only one is a 16” SR-15 with a Nightforce 1-4X24 NXS. If I were to change anything about it, I’d love to have an ATACR 1-8 or the NX8. I’m an unabashed Nightforce fan boy after having a hunting rifle fall out of a stand and hit hard enough to wreck the stock, the NXS 3.5-15X50 on top of the rifle hit the deck hard and the scope held zero and still works to this day. I am not worried about Nightforce LPVO durability or survivability.

I ran this same optic in Pat Mac a class a couple of years ago and managed the fastest practice run on his rifle scrambler, and lost out to another good shooter on the final who was also running a LPVO. We both handily outperformed the RDS shooters overall.

Someone else pointed out that you can’t always predict what circumstances you’ll need to use your carbine under, be it in a fight, hunting, pest control... whatever. So with that in mind I have mine set up as a general purpose long gun. If you know exactly what you’re likely to be doing or have a set role on a team then specialization of your tools is great, otherwise flexibility sure is nice and the LPVO gives a lot of flexibility.

[MistWolf]

What can. Not really. An sf rc2 is 17 oz which is right around the weight of a lpvo. But there is a big difference between weight on the center of the rifle and 17 oz at the muzzle.

There are several LPVs that weigh more than most K cans.

Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x 24 oz
Trijicon Accupoint 1-6x 19oz
Trijicon Accupower 1-8x 25 oz
Trijicon VCOG 1-6x (no mount or battery) 23 oz
Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6x 25oz
Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6x 22 oz
Vortex PST Gen II 23 oz
Nightforce ATACR 1-8x 21 oz
Steiner T5Xi 1-5x 19 oz

To me weight of an optic is not a huge deal. One of the reasons is due to the fact the optic is mounted towards the center of the rifle and doesn’t significantly effect the balance of the rifle.

The weight of an LPV is is important to me because it does affect weight and balance. A heavy optic may not change center of gravity much fore and aft, but it does noticeably affect CG up and down. A heavy optic can turn an AR with delightful handling into an awkward lump.

This isn't an argument against LPVs. This is an argument for considering weight when choosing an LPV. I have an upper with a lightweight Leupold Patrol 1.25-4x that I like very much.

A suppressor has a huge effect of the handling characteristics, because they increase length and weight. However the weight is at the absolute worst position. The 12-25 ounces at the end of a rifle can make a significant difference.

This is a good point and the reason why my suppressor resides on an 11.5" upper. The suppressed short upper has about the same balance and is only a couple inches longer than a pinned & welded 14.5" upper.

[glockshooter]

AKDoug,

I agree for your stated use a RDS will work fine for you. I’m not saying everyone should have a LPVO, I’m saying that if you in a position that is multi-mission a LPVO works best as a jack or all trades thing.

[markm]

I’ve used more or less all the sighting solutions discussed here in one form or another, the ACOG while in the Marine Corps as well as a personally owned Aimpoint because my command allowed it.

Both were good optics and I wouldn’t feel like I was getting shafted being issued a carbine with either setup if I was still in. I went to Iraq in 2004 and for most of my tour the Aimpoint made more sense to use because we were in built up areas more often than not. Had I instead gone to Afghanistan the ACOG would probably have been more useful most of the time.

My current and probably favorite carbine, the one I would grab if I could take only one is a 16” SR-15 with a Nightforce 1-4X24 NXS. If I were to change anything about it, I’d love to have an ATACR 1-8 or the NX8. I’m an unabashed Nightforce fan boy after having a hunting rifle fall out of a stand and hit hard enough to wreck the stock, the NXS 3.5-15X50 on top of the rifle hit the deck hard and the scope held zero and still works to this day. I am not worried about Nightforce LPVO durability or survivability.

I ran this same optic in Pat Mac a class a couple of years ago and managed the fastest practice run on his rifle scrambler, and lost out to another good shooter on the final who was also running a LPVO. We both handily outperformed the RDS shooters overall.

Someone else pointed out that you can’t always predict what circumstances you’ll need to use your carbine under, be it in a fight, hunting, pest control... whatever. So with that in mind I have mine set up as a general purpose long gun. If you know exactly what you’re likely to be doing or have a set role on a team then specialization of your tools is great, otherwise flexibility sure is nice and the LPVO gives a lot of flexibility.

Good, broad experience reply. If there were any chance I had to run just ONE AR, the LPVO might be more appealing. But when we want to reach out in the mid ranges of 400-750 yards, we grab the ACOGs or SPRish guns with NSX NightForce. I get that the LPVO gives flexibility on a single gun though.

[markderp]

I like the TR24 with triangle post. At 1x it is nearly as fast and a red dot and 4x is plenty of magnification for my needs (hunting/home defense).

There are better options out there but I like the comparatively light weight and simplicity of the reticle. To me, an LPVO makes sense for people looking for a general purpose optic that can be used effectively up close and out to 300 yards.

Plus I have a sight astigmatism.

[Stickman]

I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I'm not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.

He is correct in that in LE we are not making shots at 300 yards. I know there have been a few at long distance, but lets be honest, it isn't anything even a little bit close to that sort of distance in real life, and that is even if we add in marksman engagements.

What he is missing is that if I need to make a shot through bushes, brush, cars, windows, or anything else where my center of mass is incredibly small, never mind having to make a head shot, there are some large variables coming into play that are not seen when someone runs around punching paper.

[Coal Dragger]

Good, broad experience reply. If there were any chance I had to run just ONE AR, the LPVO might be more appealing. But when we want to reach out in the mid ranges of 400-750 yards, we grab the ACOGs or SPRish guns with NSX NightForce. I get that the LPVO gives flexibility on a single gun though.

Even the 1-4X24 NXS I’m currently running has gotten me to first round hits out to 552 yards measured with a Leica LRF 1600b. The FC-3G reticle is markedly superior to the ACOG since the Nightforce has wind holds, and they work. Now I’ll concede that getting to 600-750 yards with 4X and a BDC that only goes to 600 is going to be a lot more difficult than with something like the 2.5-10X32 NXS (owned one briefly fantastic little scope).

On the other hand the new NX8 1-8 and ATACR 1-8 both have useful reticles, and 8X will be not too far off the capabilities of acquiring targets and giving a good sight picture compared to 10X. While still maintaining a true 1X bottom end for closer work. That kind of optic has the potential to cover so much ground from 0-800 yards with good ammo, it’s tough to ignore.

[Coal Dragger]

He is correct in that in LE we are not making shots at 300 yards. I know there have been a few at long distance, but lets be honest, it isn't anything even a little bit close to that sort of distance in real life, and that is even if we add in marksman engagements.

What he is missing is that if I need to make a shot through bushes, brush, cars, windows, or anything else where my center of mass is incredibly small, never mind having to make a head shot, there are some large variables coming into play that are not seen when someone runs around punching paper.

Plus the magnified optic gives you the ability to gather information you might not get otherwise so you can make good shoot/no shoot decisions. How many officers are going to have a set of binos? Do you really want to be transitioning between binos and your RDS carbine? Yeah probably not.

[MikeGolf]

One point I would add to help answer OP’s question- the AR community has achieved widespread acceptance only in the last 15-20 years, with the expiration of the AWB, long duration of GWOT, and the proliferation of AR manufacturers and products. As time marches on, early adopters, military veterans, and long-time shooters have seen their eyesight worsen as they age. RDS were a great advancement in AR optics at the time, but LPVOs will only become more popular as the AR community ages.