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Thread: ATF Prosecutes Ohio Man for AR Pistol with Brace

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Everyone who has bought a gun from me and done 4473 is NOT on the Radar as a result of that 4473.
    Five years in, and I've never been audited. Hundreds of 4473's locked away that the ATF has never seen. My only interaction with ATF was a phone call once asking me to fax them a copy of one single 4473. Talking to my other FFL friends, the only times the ATF has come knocking on them they have had a specific serial number or person they were looking for info on and they never even looked beyond that.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerplode View Post
    Pistols and cane tips aside, this guy ****ed up when he lost his temper. He invited LE into his life and he got bent over for it. I'm actually surprised they didn't stack 20 different charges on his ass hoping that something would stick or that he'd plea out.

    It's also interesting how many of y'all seem to think that when the cops show up to confiscate your stuff you can just tell them that you sold everything at a gunshow and they'll say "Aw shucks...OK, then...Whelp, sorry to bother you good citizen. Have a nice day." and go away. Naw, it won't be like that. They'll come at 3AM, kick in door, steamroll your ass, rip your ENTIRE house to shreds looking for your stash, then go out for brunch. If you're lucky, you won't make any "furtive movements"...

    And yeah, you're already in their databases, so if you want a SBR or a janky pistol or whatever, get the damn thing and enjoy your life.
    And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
    11C2P '83-'87
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
    I wouldn't count on not being arrested and held without charge for an indefinite period, if that event ever occurs. Never mind being blackbagged and sent to Gitmo or a, "black site".
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
    This is pretty much the point I was making earlier in this thread. *If* it gets really bad at some point down the road, of course you better have a plan for your toys *before* you need to use it.
    Last edited by Biggy; 11-03-18 at 01:17.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by signal4l View Post
    I am very surprised this guy was charged with a crime. The ATF brought the case to an Assistant US Attorney, presumably after he posted pics of his ghetto blaster on line. They don't make independent charging decisions .It is not easy to get a federal prosecutor to approve charges. Our federal government has a 96+ percent conviction rate because they cherry pick their cases. This one was a loser.

    As mentioned in previous posts, this defendant is probably financially screwed for life. That seems very unfair

    I have not yet jumped on the AR pistol bandwagon. If I do I will keep ATF approval letters handy and will not modify the brace in any way.
    That is not how this guy came on the radar. He was arrested by local PD in OH for domestic violence. Local cops then confiscated his guns per state law and subsequently referred it to ATF.

    I don’t know how things are in OH but in my area ATF Special Agents and the USAO are too busy with real crooks to mess with something like this. You are correct the USAO does like risky or novel cases.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex V View Post
    I think the major problem here is the government/ATF lawyers fought against the defense showing the determination letters from the ATF that braces were "okay" to the jury.
    The case was handled by the U.S. Attorney’s office like any other federal criminal case.

    ATF opinion letters for things like SIG braces are only valid for the exact configuration submitted. If you modify the brace all bets are off and you are no longer covered by the opinion letter for the original item. It is very much a case of “change the facts and I will change my answer.”

    Playing devils advocate here, my guess is the prosecution was based on the assertion that modifying the brace 1) made it into a “stock” and 2) modifying the brace meant the ATF opinion letter for original Maxim brace no longer applied to the modified item.

    If you think like a lawyer, words have very specific meanings. The ATF approval letter for a “maxim brace” creates a specific legal definition of what a “maxim brace” is. A “maxim brace” now means on the exact maxim brace submitted to ATF for approval. if you modify the brace, legally tne “modified thing” you created no longer meets the definition of a “maxim brace” so the approval letter for a “maxim brace” is not relevant or applicable to the “modified thing.”

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
    If it comes to that point, I think (or at least hope) that most of us are less concerned about hiding our weapons, and more thinking about using them for the purpose which we got them for in the first place. If there ever was a nationwide confiscation order, even if we complied, the next thing we would be ordered to turn in is ourselves.
    Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not.-Ben Franklin

    there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.-Samwise Gamgee

  8. #78
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    What seems to be the full story - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...e-prosecution/

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoringGuy45 View Post
    If it comes to that point, I think (or at least hope) that most of us are less concerned about hiding our weapons, and more thinking about using them for the purpose which we got them for in the first place. If there ever was a nationwide confiscation order, even if we complied, the next thing we would be ordered to turn in is ourselves.
    Discretion is the better part of valor. An M4 by each window as a SWAT team bum-rushes your house isn't the brightest idea; yeah, you might get one or two but you'd be toast. The smarter person has nothing to find and "stabs them in the back" at some point in the future. They trash people's houses? Gee, theirs just might burn to the ground with everyone in it. And things that go BOOM have more effect than things that go BANG. Just thinking out loud of course, I would never advocate such lawlessness.

    Analogy: the Japanese used Banzai charges quite a bit early in the war. They took horrendous casualties but inflicted some too. Nonetheless it was a losing game. Towards the end, like on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, while they had an occasional human wave attack their strategy was more "bleed 'em dry" and that inflicted far more casualties on us than the previous tactics. Similar was the ChiComs actions in Korea (human wave assaults across the Yalu, eventually settling into a grinding, costly hill by hill stalemate). Point being that OVERT action looks good and can instill fear but will ultimately cost you. However, more COVERT (or sublime may be a better term) tactics "bleeds 'em dry" over the long grueling haul and is ultimately more costly to your foe. Ideally it would also have a more devious, insidious, cold-blooded aspect to it. That is certainly an element you'd want to inflict on an entity hell-bent on destroying or ending your life.
    Last edited by ABNAK; 11-03-18 at 08:29.
    11C2P '83-'87
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    I wouldn't count on not being arrested and held without charge for an indefinite period, if that event ever occurs. Never mind being blackbagged and sent to Gitmo or a, "black site".
    Not sure if you're serious or not, but if things have gone THAT far (i.e. just about every Constitutional protection thrown out the window) then we have a totally different situation than one of a relatively "controlled" gun confiscation don't we? Those types of stunts you mention would no doubt pull in people who otherwise would have been content just to see guns confiscated don't you think?
    11C2P '83-'87
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