P320 M17 review on American Rifleman website

[Slater]

One of the knocks against the Beretta M9 was that "it's just too damn big for a 9mm". The M17 doesn't look all that small, either, although the grip is probably more accommodating to smaller hands.

[Gödel]

One of the knocks against the Beretta M9 was that "it's just too damn big for a 9mm". The M17 doesn't look all that small, either, although the grip is probably more accommodating to smaller hands.

It isn't particularly light, either. Heavier than an alloy framed SIG P228/M11.

[Slater]

I was watching Chris Bartocci's latest video on the M17. According to him, the M17/M18 Program Manager is considering introducing an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) that would bring the M17 trigger up to the latest P320 commercial standard. I think that was expected at some point. He also said that Picatinny is also working through some other issues.

[Tokarev]

I was watching Chris Bartocci's latest video on the M17. According to him, the M17/M18 Program Manager is considering introducing an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) that would bring the M17 trigger up to the latest P320 commercial standard. I think that was expected at some point. He also said that Picatinny is also working through some other issues.

Sound quality is not the best but many of the questions/concerns here are addressed in the video I linked above.

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[sigmundsauer]

The lockwork design of these pistols was just incompetent. I took one look at all those rotating rather than sliding internal safety parts and predicted they would be a drop fire problem. SIG USA is not a gun design firm of any standing like Sauer or SIG Swiss. Anyone remember how the original P229 slides cracked? Same people.

Of course, you mean, like the folded slide P228 and P226 frames cracking?

...roll pins cracking?

...slide welds cracking?

I cherish my German SIGs but they were not remotely as durable as the US-made derivatives. In fact, the US-designed P239 was pretty darn bullet proof from the get-go.

Every respectable service pistol has undergone an evolution of sorts that have ultimately resulted in a better combat gun.

Tim

[Gödel]

Of course, you mean, like the folded slide P228 and P226 frames cracking?

...roll pins cracking?

...slide welds cracking?

I cherish my German SIGs but they were not remotely as durable as the US-made derivatives. In fact, the US-designed P239 was pretty darn bullet proof from the get-go.

Every respectable service pistol has undergone an evolution of sorts that have ultimately resulted in a better combat gun.

Tim

No, I mean the first round of US machined 229 slides were incompetently executed and would crack at the ejection port, despite being thicker than the stamped slides. The failed because of poor metallurgy and amateur engineering.

The stamped guns go back to the mid-70s and have excellent reputations in military service and were produced in 3 calibers.

[sigmundsauer]

Fair enough. I personally like the stamped slides better. The investment cast stainless steel (Ruger) slides do have their advantages, though. The cast slides survived while the folded slides were relegated to the history books.

Tim

[Tokarev]

No, I mean the first round of US machined 229 slides were incompetently executed and would crack at the ejection port, despite being thicker than the stamped slides. The failed because of poor metallurgy and amateur engineering.

The stamped guns go back to the mid-70s and have excellent reputations in military service and were produced in 3 calibers.

Was the stamped slide used in 40 S&W? Isn't that cartridge what prompted the change in the first place?

In SIG's defense, it isn't the only company to make changes to a design with the advent of the 40. That cartridge was known to cause premature wear in just about everything in was chambered in. Glock, Beretta, S&W. None of those early 9mm guns with a 40 barrel added faired too well.

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[Gödel]

Fair enough. I personally like the stamped slides better. The investment cast stainless steel (Ruger) slides do have their advantages, though. The cast slides survived while the folded slides were relegated to the history books.

Tim

The P229 weren't cast like the Rugers but machined from barstock. The stamped slides don't exist anymore because SIG does not make anything in the Sauer plant anymore.

Was the stamped slide used in 40 S&W? Isn't that cartridge what prompted the change in the first place?

In SIG's defense, it isn't the only company to make changes to a design with the advent of the 40. That cartridge was known to cause premature wear in just about everything in was chambered in. Glock, Beretta, S&W. None of those early 9mm guns with a 40 barrel added faired too well.

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The basic design of the P229 is excellent - Sig was one of the first companies to add the appropriate amount of slide mass to counter .40s recoil; HK was the first. Everyone else just took a 9mm pistol and opened up the breech and bore. Sig never made a stamped slide gun in .40 or .357 - just 9, .38 Super and .45.


My point about SIG's quality problems is that the brand got its reputation from Switzerland and Germany - not the US. The US guys were originally just importers and the very first thing they produced were P229 slides. Since then they have had QC problems with just about everything, while nearly every Euro design (SigPro, for instance) had an excellent reputation. It is beyond simply teething problems - I truly don't think they have people qualified to design guns, which is why they and Bruce Gray were in such disbelief when the guns started ADing. Being a gunsmith, even a good one, doesn't make you a gun designer.

[Firefly]

Sig is such a meme but whatever.