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Thread: The "Best" All-Around Optic for your AR?

  1. #131
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    Something to consider:

    I'm not for or against Vortex optics. I've never owned one (although one is on the way). It's been said that "you get what you pay for", and that is generally true. It's also true that labor is a huge cost factor in any product. Case in point: Is there a reason Aimpoints cost more than Trijicon MRO's other than the labor? What is the hourly labor rate in Sweden? How about import duties and other cost factors like shipping? A lot of people are of the opinion that the Trijicon MRO is the equal of the Aimpoint T1. Why does the T1 cost more?

    Similarly, maybe the Vortex Crossfire isn't on the level of the T1 or MRO, but where is it produced? I'm generally of the opinion that products made in China are inherently inferior, but with a qualifier: They are inferior if made in China of Chinese materials to Chinese specifications.

    If a product is made of quality components but only assembled in China to save on labor, then that product might be comparable in quality to a more expensive product that is made in a country with higher labor rates. Vortex makes some products in the Phillippines and Japan as well (if internet searches are to be believed), so without a definitive answer from Vortex it's difficult to know for sure what country made what optic and which materials are sourced where.

    Only Vortex can answer these questions and put any speculation to bed, of course, but having watched a handful of torture and deliberate abuse tests of Vortex optics on YouTube I would say they apparently "aren't all that bad." My point is that just because they are a "low end" optic doesn't necessarily mean they are inherently inferior.

    Long-term experience and word-of-mouth are the determinants. Do Vortex optics "seem" to have a lot of warranty claims? Could that be because they sell a shit-ton of products? Trijicon ACOGs are super expensive. So they sell way fewer ACOGs than Vortex sells Crossfires. Maybe Colt appears to have a higher number of complaints on the internet, but on the other hand do they simply ship a much greater number of rifles which would naturally increase the number of complaints?

    Again, I'm not defending or attacking Vortex, but all factors must be considered. It's not simply a case of "cheap optic automatically equals junk."
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 01-08-19 at 15:09.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    Well, I respect that.

    It's not that I'm against Vortex; quite the contrary. Each manufacturer has varying tiers/grades and designs for various purposes. It would pain me to think an user in harms miscalculated and expected more than what was intended from a given design for the sheer sake of saving a few hundred dollars over that of a tried and true design like the HD 2/HD 2E. Suffice to say, I'm not a gambler.
    Fair is fair and we can't argue with that mindset at all because it is entirely valid. In a world where we could only choose one optic to do it all with absolutely no compromise, we too would take the HD 2/2E.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Safari View Post
    Something to consider:

    I'm not for or against Vortex optics. I've never owned one (although one is on the way). It's been said that "you get what you pay for", and that is generally true. It's also true that labor is a huge cost factor in any product. Case in point: Is there a reason Aimpoints cost more than Trijicon MRO's other than the labor? What is the hourly labor rate in Sweden? How about import duties and other cost factors like shipping? A lot of people are of the opinion that the Trijicon MRO is the equal of the Aimpoint T1. Why does the T1 cost more?

    Similarly, maybe the Vortex Crossfire isn't on the level of the T1 or MRO, but where is it produced? I'm generally of the opinion that products made in China are inherently inferior, but with a qualifier: They are inferior if made in China of Chinese materials to Chinese specifications.

    If a product is made of quality components but only assembled in China to save on labor, then that product might be comparable in quality to a more expensive product that is made in a country with higher labor rates. Vortex makes some products in the Phillippines and Japan as well (if internet searches are to be believed), so without a definitive answer from Vortex it's difficult to know for sure what country made what optic and which materials are sourced where.

    Only Vortex can answer these questions and put any speculation to bed, of course, but having watched a handful of torture and deliberate abuse tests of Vortex optics on YouTube I would say they apparently "aren't all that bad." My point is that just because they are a "low end" optic doesn't necessarily mean they are inherently inferior.

    Long-term experience and word-of-mouth are the determinants. Do Vortex optics "seem" to have a lot of warranty claims? Could that be because they sell a shit-ton of products? Trijicon ACOGs are super expensive. So they sell way fewer ACOGs than Vortex sells Crossfires. Maybe Colt appears to have a higher number of complaints on the internet, but on the other hand do they simply ship a much greater number of rifles which would naturally increase the number of complaints?

    Again, I'm not defending or attacking Vortex, but all factors must be considered. It's not simply a case of "cheap optic automatically equals junk."
    Great points - thanks for bringing this up.

    Too many people forget that with due diligence taken in determining a reliable partner factory, the proper materials, proper machines and tooling, engineering and development, specifications, tolerances, testing and communication, human beings are capable of making quality products for a given price point in any country. There's absolutely no reason someone in the USA without those previously mentioned things couldn't make an absolute P.O.S. and slap "Made in USA" all over the outside. Does that make it a superior product to a properly developed, manufactured and executed product from China? We'd hope the answer would be a resounding no. It's often assumed manufacturers simply go to the quickest factory they can get in contact with in China, head to their back room, pick out the first black blob they find, say "We'll take that one with our logo on it" and immediately throw it on the market. Sure, that happens, but not here, and not with many of the other companies we work with and even compete with today. There would be absolutely no need for nearly 300 full-time Southwestern Wisconsin employees in a brand new 250,000+ square foot building here if that were the case.

    Are there a lot of warranty claims? Depends on what one's idea of "A lot" is. We track this kind of information and can tell you that far less than 1% of the products we make come back for warranty issue. There are millions of Vortex optics out there, though, so that less-than-1% might seem more than others - just like a small slice of a giant pie might seem like a relatively large slice of pie compared to someone else's. Are most of the warranty claims that come in on our more entry-level products (Probably out of China)? Certainly. Again, there's millions more of those out on the marketplace and, not to badmouth anyone who's day job isn't to mount and zero rifles every waking moment, the majority of the issues that come in are user error primarily in the mounting and zeroing process. We'll happily repair or replace the product at no charge if it's been permanently damaged by the user and attempt to help them avoid the issue in the future, but some will still be frustrated and head to the forums. China is an easy scape goat for those kinds of issues.

    Fact is - if folks don't want to buy an entry level product made in China for whatever reason, that's great and we won't argue one bit. We might recommend they check out something else in our line like the Viper series, the Razor series or arguably the most Made in USA optic on the market - the AMG, but if they don't even want to give Vortex a look at all then that's cool, too. We say all this just to give people an accurate, no-bullshit idea of what goes on behind the scenes. Say what you will about Chinese manufacturing - do we wish everything could be made in the USA? Hell yes. Everything would also cost well over $1000 (Even for a Crossfire II) and would be basically constantly out of stock and - oh - we'd be out of business, but it would be awesome. "But Vortex - you're buying product from a country we could be at war with - we can't believe you could possibly be giving them any money!" - Joke's on them? By working with their factories to produce a handfull of our products at great prices with great quality and excellent value, we're keeping the lights on here, employing hundreds of Americans and buying machines and equipment to develop new technologies for our nation's military that will.... Well... We can't tell you what they'll do yet, but you'll surely find out in due time... Anyway, we digress.... But there you have it.

    If you have any questions, we're happy to answer them to the best of our abilities. Obviously there may be some things we keep close to the vest, but as you can see, we prefer to be as open as possible for our customers and won't hide anything that wouldn't put us in a legal or competitive disadvantage.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pappabear View Post
    Man oh man, what a can of worms. An ACOG with RDS on top is hard to beat. Very hard to beat, I ran that and loved it. You have to cheek weld the RDS but was never a problem for me. I recently bought a Nightforce 1-8 and feel that its only downside is $$$$. Ive got minimal experience but its awesome. I mean awesome. Its the NXS version vs the ATACR version. The ATACR vs NXS has been beaten to death, so go to optics forum if you want to learn that difference.

    PB
    I like the idea, but for some reason when an RMR is on an ACOG, the reticle gets washed out by my WML. Which isn't an issue that I had with the RMRs I've had on handguns with X300Us.
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
    - Samuel Adams -

  5. #135
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    It will be interesting to see if any new or tweaked current model LPV’s will be introduced at SHOT in a couple weeks. Due to competition for your money nothing stays the same or on top for very long.
    Last edited by Biggy; 01-09-19 at 13:40.

  6. #136
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    I may have mentioned this before, but I emailed Trijicon asking for a fiber optic and Tritium powered 1x or max 1.5x optic with unlimited eye relief that can be used like an RDS. In other words, an RDS that is not battery powered and not a reflex sight: more like a 1x ACOG with unlimited eye relief. The TA44 is in the ballpark but not exactly. Their response, of course, was that they would pass it on to their product development people.

    To me, that is the ultimate CQB optic if I could ever get them to produce it.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by VortexOptics View Post
    Great points - thanks for bringing this up.

    Too many people forget that with due diligence taken in determining a reliable partner factory, the proper materials, proper machines and tooling, engineering and development, specifications, tolerances, testing and communication, human beings are capable of making quality products for a given price point in any country. There's absolutely no reason someone in the USA without those previously mentioned things couldn't make an absolute P.O.S. and slap "Made in USA" all over the outside. Does that make it a superior product to a properly developed, manufactured and executed product from China? We'd hope the answer would be a resounding no. It's often assumed manufacturers simply go to the quickest factory they can get in contact with in China, head to their back room, pick out the first black blob they find, say "We'll take that one with our logo on it" and immediately throw it on the market. Sure, that happens, but not here, and not with many of the other companies we work with and even compete with today. There would be absolutely no need for nearly 300 full-time Southwestern Wisconsin employees in a brand new 250,000+ square foot building here if that were the case.

    Are there a lot of warranty claims? Depends on what one's idea of "A lot" is. We track this kind of information and can tell you that far less than 1% of the products we make come back for warranty issue. There are millions of Vortex optics out there, though, so that less-than-1% might seem more than others - just like a small slice of a giant pie might seem like a relatively large slice of pie compared to someone else's. Are most of the warranty claims that come in on our more entry-level products (Probably out of China)? Certainly. Again, there's millions more of those out on the marketplace and, not to badmouth anyone who's day job isn't to mount and zero rifles every waking moment, the majority of the issues that come in are user error primarily in the mounting and zeroing process. We'll happily repair or replace the product at no charge if it's been permanently damaged by the user and attempt to help them avoid the issue in the future, but some will still be frustrated and head to the forums. China is an easy scape goat for those kinds of issues.

    Fact is - if folks don't want to buy an entry level product made in China for whatever reason, that's great and we won't argue one bit. We might recommend they check out something else in our line like the Viper series, the Razor series or arguably the most Made in USA optic on the market - the AMG, but if they don't even want to give Vortex a look at all then that's cool, too. We say all this just to give people an accurate, no-bullshit idea of what goes on behind the scenes. Say what you will about Chinese manufacturing - do we wish everything could be made in the USA? Hell yes. Everything would also cost well over $1000 (Even for a Crossfire II) and would be basically constantly out of stock and - oh - we'd be out of business, but it would be awesome. "But Vortex - you're buying product from a country we could be at war with - we can't believe you could possibly be giving them any money!" - Joke's on them? By working with their factories to produce a handfull of our products at great prices with great quality and excellent value, we're keeping the lights on here, employing hundreds of Americans and buying machines and equipment to develop new technologies for our nation's military that will.... Well... We can't tell you what they'll do yet, but you'll surely find out in due time... Anyway, we digress.... But there you have it.

    If you have any questions, we're happy to answer them to the best of our abilities. Obviously there may be some things we keep close to the vest, but as you can see, we prefer to be as open as possible for our customers and won't hide anything that wouldn't put us in a legal or competitive disadvantage.
    Woah. Dude. Way too many words man.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Boba Fett v2; 01-09-19 at 14:26.
    "People have always been stupid. The Internet just makes it easier for us to know about them." - donlapalma

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boba Fett v2 View Post
    Woah. Dude. Way too many words man.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Dammit got carried away again...

  9. #139
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    Gonna do a build one day thats just a shot to hell DD m4a1 upper, or maybe a very worn out Urgi, off the EE, throw a Strike Eagle in one of Bill's mounts, and call it clone correct

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Safari View Post
    I may have mentioned this before, but I emailed Trijicon asking for a fiber optic and Tritium powered 1x or max 1.5x optic with unlimited eye relief that can be used like an RDS. In other words, an RDS that is not battery powered and not a reflex sight: more like a 1x ACOG with unlimited eye relief. The TA44 is in the ballpark but not exactly. Their response, of course, was that they would pass it on to their product development people.

    To me, that is the ultimate CQB optic if I could ever get them to produce it.
    Aside from form factor what rules out using a RMR as a primary optic? More than a few members here have gone through the what's the best sub 200 Y optic & wound up with either RDS or a RMR. I remember a thread from one M4C member that had pegged the max shot in his AO to ~200Y & worked through the RDS/Holo/Etched etc options, can't find their thread on it unfortunately as it had great logic.

    Re battery vs. tritium - The 10 year energizer AA's are guaranteed to hold a charge that long from the mfg. I'm guessing the Panasonic eneloop 5 year 70% retention & 2100 cycle would keep a stock of AAA/AA ticking with a solar charger for that long if not longer.
    https://www.panasonic.com/global/con...op/lineup.html
    They're cheap enough that you could buy a set every 3-6 months if things started looking ugly right up till the end. If you did a complete discharge & recharge once a month that's 175 years of theoretical service life for 1 battery. With FO/light pipe (ala Trijicon) you could just paint over the Fiber optic when the tritium is dead with something like this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium_aluminate
    charge during the day & tape it up at night like everyone with a trijicon does already. Or just crush post TEOTWAKI radioactive glowing bugs against the thing & tape them there. Or feed, domesticate & train the buggers to roost on Trijicon optics at night.


    I've been on this fence with a para FAL between keeping it sub 10lbs loaded & having the FSP cover a ~8" A zone at 100 yards. Something more than a T-1 but less than a full fledged 1-6/8 LPVO. It's a 3-5 MOA with surplus gun, because with .308 cover -> concealment. Or so the internet says. I've considered a fixed 4 or 6X ala HAMR or DEVO with my T1, simply for speed of acquisition with the T1 & simply shifting to use the fixed optic. Browe had some cool features going a few years ago - bomb proof, target light sensor, auto on/off etc but haven't done anything interesting with it.

    Al

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