The "Best" All-Around Optic for your AR?

[joffe]

Why does the country of origin matter? There is SO much more to quality manufacturing than that.

Giving out that information just creates speculation, logical fallacies, and jumps to conclusion.

The price is a better indicator to the quality of what's inside. It's not an absolute indicator, but it tells me a lot more than where something is made.

If I were Vortex I wouldn't give that out in any way.

In the interest of disclosure I've been in the technical and business sides of some pretty sophisticated manufacturing industries (not optics tho) for about 25 years.....

It matters because of principles. I prefer to buy products made as locally as possible, and failing that, from allied countries where my money does not go to supporting a hostile authoritarian government. This is why I am very happy to own Razor optics, not only because they're great products, but because they are made in Japan rather than in China.

Also, Vortex does not keep this secret, they just do not wear it on their sleeve. They will disclose it if you ask. I'm merely asking for the removal of this link in the chain.

[WS6]

The USSOCOM-spec ATACR riflescope will sport a custom BDC combat reticle and a FDE (Flat Dark Earth) paint job. SOCOM’s calling it the Squad-Variable Powered Scope. If it is ever offered, this is the scope and reticle *I* would prefer, if dumping big bucks on an optic.

I am not a fan of BDC reticles and would prefer the civilian ATACR.

[Don Quijote]

The USSOCOM-spec ATACR riflescope will sport a custom BDC combat reticle and a FDE (Flat Dark Earth) paint job. SOCOM’s calling it the Squad-Variable Powered Scope. If it is ever offered, this is the scope and reticle *I* would prefer, if dumping big bucks on an optic.

Is that because it's the reticle that best meets your needs from what you have seen about it or is it because some cool military dudes are buying it?

[JoshNC]

The USSOCOM-spec ATACR riflescope will sport a custom BDC combat reticle and a FDE (Flat Dark Earth) paint job. SOCOM’s calling it the Squad-Variable Powered Scope. If it is ever offered, this is the scope and reticle *I* would prefer, if dumping big bucks on an optic.

Eh, BDC reticle. Pass. Having used BDCs and mil based reticles, I prefer the latter. I really like the FC-DM reticle in my ATACR 1-8.

[VortexOptics]

I'm happy to see you on the forums.

Personally, as an owner of two Razors and someone who will continue being a Vortex customer in the future, here's what I'd like to see: more openness about country of origin. It's an 'open secret' that most of your products come from the PRC, that some lines come from the Philippines, some further still from Japan, and the AMG line is of course American made.

I have some idea of where each line comes from, but it would be nicer to not have to guess or overburden your customer service team every time I'm wondering. Why not put the country of origin in the specs?

Reason really goes along with our previous post. To a rational thinker who understands that country of origin really cannot be directly related to quality level of a product, simply knowing where the product was physically manufactured is just extra information that may help if they have some other reason to care, whether personal, political or other. Unfortunately, many people don't see the country of origin very rationally and try to directly attribute it to the product's quality level. Case and point - we make it no secret that the 50mm Razor spotting scope (The smallest one) is made in China, but the larger models, which are very different entirely, are made in Japan and assembled in the USA. Is the 50mm any worse than the other models quality-wise? Absolutely not - it is an excellent spotting scope that extremely hardcore mountain hunters and others use with phenomenal optical quality. It just happens to be that the factory we partnered with on the larger models cannot make the smaller scope to our requirements without significant time and resources ($$$$) in development, testing, tooling, prototyping, more testing, more developing, etc, etc. which then just equates to the same product you can already get right now that happens to be made in China, but likely more expensive. If we emblazoned the country of origin on those spotters all over the place, many would just instantly assume the 50mm sucks and the others are good and it would create more work for customer service and everyone else to try and explain what's really going on behind the scenes and why you're still getting a fantastic optic.

Bottom line - it's no secret. Like another poster mentioned, we just don't wear it on our sleeve because when it comes down to the flat out performance of the optic, it really shouldn't matter. If you have other reasons to want to know where a product is made, we're happy to tell you on request without hesitation (It's also on every single product if you're in the store). Like we said - we can promise you that's less taxing on our customer service folks here than having to deal with a million quality-related questions from people who make instant assumptions based on what country the people who made the optic work in.

[joffe]

Reason really goes along with our previous post. To a rational thinker who understands that country of origin really cannot be directly related to quality level of a product, simply knowing where the product was physically manufactured is just extra information that may help if they have some other reason to care, whether personal, political or other. Unfortunately, many people don't see the country of origin very rationally and try to directly attribute it to the product's quality level. Case and point - we make it no secret that the 50mm Razor spotting scope (The smallest one) is made in China, but the larger models, which are very different entirely, are made in Japan and assembled in the USA. Is the 50mm any worse than the other models quality-wise? Absolutely not - it is an excellent spotting scope that extremely hardcore mountain hunters and others use with phenomenal optical quality. It just happens to be that the factory we partnered with on the larger models cannot make the smaller scope to our requirements without significant time and resources ($$$$) in development, testing, tooling, prototyping, more testing, more developing, etc, etc. which then just equates to the same product you can already get right now that happens to be made in China, but likely more expensive. If we emblazoned the country of origin on those spotters all over the place, many would just instantly assume the 50mm sucks and the others are good and it would create more work for customer service and everyone else to try and explain what's really going on behind the scenes and why you're still getting a fantastic optic.

Bottom line - it's no secret. Like another poster mentioned, we just don't wear it on our sleeve because when it comes down to the flat out performance of the optic, it really shouldn't matter. If you have other reasons to want to know where a product is made, we're happy to tell you on request without hesitation (It's also on every single product if you're in the store). Like we said - we can promise you that's less taxing on our customer service folks here than having to deal with a million quality-related questions from people who make instant assumptions based on what country the people who made the optic work in.

Okay, I guess I can understand that rationale.

I'm heavily looking forward to the expansion of the AMG line, and seeing what's in store for the Razor line.

[VortexOptics]

Okay, I guess I can understand that rationale.

I'm heavily looking forward to the expansion of the AMG line, and seeing what's in store for the Razor line.

Lots in store just last year the UH-1 holographic sight joined the AMG lineup and there will be more things in the future (No word on when or what yet though - they keep that pretty tight lipped)

[prepare]

One of the reasons country of origin matters to me is honesty, integrity, and trust. I trust Made in Japan more than China. There is just one way to verify every optic doesn’t have cheaper grade material than the standard you tested and agreed to. They are notorious for that. My wife’s from there and she doesn’t trust them either. It’s common knowledge for the locals. Its also completely common practice for business reps to tell you want they think you want to hear vs the truth. There no shame in dishonesty.

[VortexOptics]

One of the reasons country of origin matters to me is honesty, integrity, and trust. I trust Made in Japan more than China. There is just one way to verify every optic doesn’t have cheaper grade material than the standard you tested and agreed to. They are notorious for that. My wife’s from there and she doesn’t trust them either. It’s common knowledge for the locals. Its also completely common practice for business reps to tell you want they think you want to hear vs the truth. There no shame in dishonesty.

You're absolutely right, but everyone is capable of being dishonest and without integrity and trust, regardless of where they're from - it often takes on different forms, but no one on earth is perfect. Without getting into a battle of one culture vs another, we can tell you from experience working with partners in China, Philippines, Japan and the USA among others since we joined this industry in 1986, people from every single one of those countries have exhibited dishonesty and played all kinds of games in order to get as much out of a deal or situation as possible while giving the least. It usually comes in different ways and once you have enough experience with each you can generally find your own ways of exposing their games and countering their moves.

If the implication was made or it was assumed that we go to factories - whether they be in China or the USA or anywhere in between - give them some specs and tolerances and just trust they'll do exactly that with no checks and balances in place, that is entirely incorrect. We can't speak for other companies, but we have an entire in-house quality control team who maintains a constant eye on quality of products across our lineup that come in and go to our customers. While no one can ever catch every single minor detail that might be wrong amongst millions of products that come into one building and then leave to the rest of the world, it certainly keeps our suppliers and partners honest and we can catch an issue extremely quickly and make sure it is resolved. After time, you find the people you can *mostly* trust and the ones you can't. Work with the ones you can mostly trust and keep them honest by checking their work thoroughly and often. That gains you a reputation as being a tough bunch to get anything sneaky by and your customers appreciate the consistency in the end as well. Consistency in quality helps grow a brand and factories who work with strong brands that have lots of customers start wanting to screw with them less and less - one slip up in order to save a buck and now one of their biggest customers is going elsewhere with no return in sight and their business takes a huge hit. That's just the cycle of things.

[prepare]

It helps knowing you know the game.