The "Best" All-Around Optic for your AR?

[Wake27]

I think this is the part of your statement I was referring to Wake. Which in reality not that it matters anyways because I can't convince most the guys on my department to spend the money to go more than a SPARC very less a Razor for their duty gun. "But what if I gotta shoot someone!? Thats too much money to have tied up in evidence!" But you'll be alive and or saved someones life... "But muh money!"

Fair point, I should have clarified. Its not that I don't think they're great for general MIL/LE work, its that I don't think issuing them to the entire force is a good idea because I know plenty of Soldiers that have problems just using a red dot and if nothing else, I don't like the idea of unknowledgeable end-users messing with the LPVOs and their mounts, etc.

[shadow93]

Fair point, I should have clarified. Its not that I don't think they're great for general MIL/LE work, its that I don't think issuing them to the entire force is a good idea because I know plenty of Soldiers that have problems just using a red dot and if nothing else, I don't like the idea of unknowledgeable end-users messing with the LPVOs and their mounts, etc.

I gotcha now, and I agree with that. Part of that comes back to training too which is a whole other topic.

[shadow93]

I’ve been considering a LPVO for a few years and thought I was set on a SFP. Now after seeing some of the offerings this past year FFP is looking more interesting. I love the concept of the Eotec Vudu sr1 where their circle dot disappears to reveal the hold over reticule. Also some of the ACSS designs in FFP from Primary Arms look very usable in FFP configuration.

I feel it could be comforting to know you don’t have to be exactly at max zoom for everything to jive but i have only run red dots and have no experience

Has anyone with FFP and SFP LPVO experience changed there minds in the last year or so?

As far as LPVOs go the rule of principle I've discussed with others and have started using myself is FFP on a gun that will spend more time doing long range work but could be needed in an up close role (ala NX8). SFP for a gun that will spend most its life up close work but could be needed to press out farther (ala Razor/Kahles). Also plenty have come to the conclusion that FFP is too limiting on a 1-6 and isn't needed until at least 8x.

[OldState]

As far as LPVOs go the rule of principle I've discussed with others and have started using myself is FFP on a gun that will spend more time doing long range work but could be needed in an up close role (ala NX8). SFP for a gun that will spend most its life up close work but could be needed to press out farther (ala Razor/Kahles). Also plenty have come to the conclusion that FFP is too limiting on a 1-6 and isn't needed until at least 8x.

Ok. The newer and lighter Razor E has looks interesting as does the Viper PST Gen 2. The rifle I want to put in on already weighs 8lbs w/o a mag and currently wearing an Aimpoint pro, so weight is a concern....but so is price. I’m looking in the $1000 range or less.

[Dr. Bullseye]

I have read you can only use SFP ranging system when you are all the way out to max. magnification. Is that true? What do you do with a scope, say 1-8x and are at 6x? Why wouldn't you want the reticle to enlarge as it becomes more useful to use?

[Wake27]

As far as LPVOs go the rule of principle I've discussed with others and have started using myself is FFP on a gun that will spend more time doing long range work but could be needed in an up close role (ala NX8). SFP for a gun that will spend most its life up close work but could be needed to press out farther (ala Razor/Kahles). Also plenty have come to the conclusion that FFP is too limiting on a 1-6 and isn't needed until at least 8x.

My experience here is limited but all of my research has lead me to agree with this.

Ok. The newer and lighter Razor E has looks interesting as does the Viper PST Gen 2. The rifle I want to put in on already weighs 8lbs w/o a mag and currently wearing an Aimpoint pro, so weight is a concern....but so is price. I’m looking in the $1000 range or less.

The Viper is a good amount less than the Razor but I believe that it’s heavier than the original Gen II. If both price and weight are a concern, your best bet may be the Steiner P4Xi. I used mine for a year to test the LPVO thing out and found that I loved it, leading to my Razor. I was going to sell it but I like it so much that I’ve kept it as a spare optic to throw on a backup gun at some point, once I get a new mount for it. Personally, I think the newer DD mount would be a solid pairing with it.


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[OldState]

My experience here is limited but all of my research has lead me to agree with this.



The Viper is a good amount less than the Razor but I believe that it’s heavier than the original Gen II. If both price and weight are a concern, your best bet may be the Steiner P4Xi. I used mine for a year to test the LPVO thing out and found that I loved it, leading to my Razor. I was going to sell it but I like it so much that I’ve kept it as a spare optic to throw on a backup gun at some point, once I get a new mount for it. Personally, I think the newer DD mount would be a solid pairing with it.


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From what I’ve read and seen the new Viper gen 2 and Razor E are similar in weight 22.7oz vs 21.5 respectively. Not many reviews out there on the new Viper but from what there is many feel it is 95% the clarity of the razor and basically the same construction. It’s lighter than the older Razor

[Wake27]

From what I’ve read and seen the new Viper gen 2 and Razor E are similar in weight 22.7oz vs 21.5 respectively. Not many reviews out there on the new Viper but from what there is many feel it is 95% the clarity of the razor and basically the same construction. It’s lighter than the older Razor

You’re right, I’d seen somewhere that had it at 25+ ounces. I too have heard that glass and such is damn close, but the durability has taken a hit. I think Yeti and some dudes on P&S had broken theirs. I will say that my gun took a tumble a week ago. It fell off a shooting bench onto concrete and landed right on the top of the Razor. It hurts my souls to think about but I picked it up and there was no noticeable zero shift. The only damage was to the turret cap, which vortex already replaced. It’s not a lightweight rifle either.




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[thopkins22]

I have read you can only use SFP ranging system when you are all the way out to max. magnification. Is that true? What do you do with a scope, say 1-8x and are at 6x? Why wouldn't you want the reticle to enlarge as it becomes more useful to use?

You just have to do the math. The TR-24 triangle is 4MOA at 4x is 4moa, at 1x it is roughly 17moa. You can use it that way. Long answer is as follows.

If a target is far enough away that you need to range it/use a BDC reticle, I think it’s safe to say you have the time and ability to turn up the magnification. It’s not like a 5-25 where you might not actually want to shoot with the extra magnification. And at 0 to say 350, you should know where you’re going to hit using the actual crosshair/dot and not need any extra stadia to do so with effective accuracy.

In the 1-6/1-8 realm, the magnification is only going to enable better shooting at those sorts of distances.

But yes, because the reticle doesn’t grow and shrink with the changes in magnification, it does grow and shrink relative to the target which means that the distances between various markings changes relative to the target.

Some reticles and some manufacturers have done the math and let you know what the various parts of the reticle mean at different magnifications...but I don’t know of anyone really using them that way under any kind of stress. I did use the old TR-24’s reticle that way a couple of times I’m 3-gun...but there are better ways to do it now.

[RHINOWSO]

From what I’ve read and seen the new Viper gen 2 and Razor E are similar in weight 22.7oz vs 21.5 respectively. Not many reviews out there on the new Viper but from what there is many feel it is 95% the clarity of the razor and basically the same construction. It’s lighter than the older Razor

I have a Viper Gen 2 1-6x and like it a lot.

Is it a Razer E? No, but it cost 1/2 and delivers at least 9/10s of the performance.

I've thought a lot about getting a Razor E, then I go shoot by 16" BCM with the Viper Gen 2 and decide I have better things to do with $1200 that would go to a Razor.

And where I shoot everything is pretty much 200 and in.