Article: Training for Reality: Reloads and Situational Awareness

[TheTick]

Gamers - folks who overthink, overplan, and over strategize shooting scenarios. Like an IDPA stage. Plan their shooting sequence, foot movement, reloads, target engagement, equipment, yada, yada, yada. All things you will never have time to do in a real gunfight.

That shit rears its ugly head in the real world too. I’ve seen younger guys new to running jobs plan like “we’ll get inside, then you two head left to whatever room while you two go right to the living room... and there, we have the whole house planned out.” Then we hit the door, the house is the reverse layout and the plan goes to shit. There’s something to be said for just getting the general gist down and then let the guys work the problems. OODA loops get smashed when the over-planning doesn’t match what actually confronts you.

I’m not a “gamer”. Is it common to get to walk through the stage before shooting it? If so, that (to me) places it almost squarely in the “for fun” column. Shooting it sight unseen would be way more realistic. It’s like guys wanting to “warm up” before shooting quals.

[hogarth]

That shit rears its ugly head in the real world too. I’ve seen younger guys new to running jobs plan like “we’ll get inside, then you two head left to whatever room while you two go right to the living room... and there, we have the whole house planned out.” Then we hit the door, the house is the reverse layout and the plan goes to shit. There’s something to be said for just getting the general gist down and then let the guys work the problems. OODA loops get smashed when the over-planning doesn’t match what actually confronts you.

I’m not a “gamer”. Is it common to get to walk through the stage before shooting it? If so, that (to me) places it almost squarely in the “for fun” column. Shooting it sight unseen would be way more realistic. It’s like guys wanting to “warm up” before shooting quals.

Yes, you get a walk-through.

It's got rules. It's a game. It's not meant to be "realistic". It's a game.

Funny that every actual "gunfighter" I know (LE or mil) recommends USPSA, IDPA, etc.

[Voodoo_Man]

Yes, you get a walk-through.

It's got rules. It's a game. It's not meant to be "realistic". It's a game.

Funny that every actual "gunfighter" I know (LE or mil) recommends USPSA, IDPA, etc.

Just so everyone's on the same page...

Everyone gets a walk through because it's a game and it needs to have an equal starting point, remove as many unknowns as possible.

Yes it's got rules, it's a game, it's not meant to be realistic, yet people constantly preach that gaming is the only way people get better at shooting and people go play these games and believe it's "training". It's one or the other, it's never both.

The real world BTDT guys who like gaming did the tactical stuff first. They did their reps, they have the experience, and it's not something that can be disregarded because they like to shoot games all of a sudden. When you train for real world shootouts and game once in a while, or were a tactical guy for twenty years and now game in retirement doesn't magically validate gaming. That's not how that works.

...and of course real world shooters recommend gaming, it's the easy button of gun competency, doesn't make it the only way to get better, it's just a way that a lot of people take, which has a lot of pitfalls.

[thopkins22]

Yes, you get a walk-through.

It's got rules. It's a game. It's not meant to be "realistic". It's a game.

Funny that every actual "gunfighter" I know (LE or mil) recommends USPSA, IDPA, etc.

That’s correct. Competition does not teach you how to move, how to work corners, use cover, react to getting shot at, nor any of that. These folks are spot on about that.

It does teach you to transition to new things you’re going to shoot faster, it teaches you to shoot from awkward positions, at moving targets, at disappearing targets, and it teaches you to shoot at them faster and more definitely more accurately. Nobody is winning matches with bad hits. Nobody. Is it a balance of speed and accuracy? Sure...but so is a gunfight.

Now people can argue that there is a level of shooting prowess that is good enough when coupled with superb mindset/tactics/fight knowledge, and while that may very well be the case, it is never bad to be better. It’s not a zero sum game for most people. You don’t have to trade force on force to be a better shooter, you don’t have to skip anything else such as hand to hand training or a class in one person room clearing for home defense.

If we’re concerned about staying alive and avoiding our demise, we’d say that training with firearms at all is a waste of resources and time. The only training we’d seek out is defensive driving, and the rest of our energy would go towards working out and cooking the healthiest meals available since we’re all going to die in a car crash, or by heart disease or respiratory disease.

I’ve learned something at every match that would make me more competitive, and it was never “oh my reloads or draw is too slow.” It’s “man I had a hard time hitting the small steel at 20 yards when my nerves were on fire and out of breath, better work on accuracy and fitness,” or “damn, I don’t know how to hit moving targets and one handed shooting was awful.”

Temper your main thing with something else. If all you do is SouthNarc type classes/training, get to some USPSA matches. If all you do is shoot matches, show up for some jujitsu classes. I promise the experience will likely help you improve at whatever your main focus is.

...Yes it's got rules, it's a game, it's not meant to be realistic, yet people constantly preach that gaming is the only way people get better at shooting and people go play these games and believe it's "training". It's one or the other, it's never both.

The real world BTDT guys who like gaming did the tactical stuff first. They did their reps, they have the experience, and it's not something that can be disregarded because they like to shoot games all of a sudden. When you train for real world shootouts and game once in a while, or were a tactical guy for twenty years and now game in retirement doesn't magically validate gaming. That's not how that works.

...and of course real world shooters recommend gaming, it's the easy button of gun competency, doesn't make it the only way to get better, it's just a way that a lot of people take, which has a lot of pitfalls.

I don’t think a single person here has suggested that it is the “only way to get better.” If it’s the only thing you do, you’re definitely behind the eight ball. I will say it is a super efficient way to get better at shooting and will teach you things you didn’t know that are almost guaranteed to do help you. Take what you like and leave the rest.

I will certainly agree that it has pitfalls, but so does daily sims training. We’re smart creatures who can realize that a ghost holster isn’t an ideal thing for fighting or moving around the world with.

Also, as that video I posted talks about, he learned the tactical stuff and instructed a large number of the Army’s SOF, and still learned a lot about shooting by competing. It’s not just something to have fun with.

[TheTick]

Yes, you get a walk-through.

It's got rules. It's a game. It's not meant to be "realistic". It's a game.

Funny that every actual "gunfighter" I know (LE or mil) recommends USPSA, IDPA, etc.

Gotcha.

I don’t know whether to recommend it or not as I’ve never done it. My lack of experience with it is why I don’t know it’s intent. It looks interesting and as I mentioned early, the range I’m joining next year does all that stuff. I’m definitely going to give it a go just to try something new and get my speed up. Definitely something out of my comfort zone (which is good), I just need to not exchange speed for losing good tactics on footwork, angles, and SA on where other people may be inside a structure, etc.

[Caduceus]

Pistol up, from page 1, os how I've been trained, from Academi to Joe Schmo at Palmetto State. "Workspace" ring a bell?

[Voodoo_Man]

I don’t think a single person here has suggested that it is the “only way to get better.” If it’s the only thing you do, you’re definitely behind the eight ball. I will say it is a super efficient way to get better at shooting and will teach you things you didn’t know that are almost guaranteed to do help you. Take what you like and leave the rest.

I will certainly agree that it has pitfalls, but so does daily sims training. We’re smart creatures who can realize that a ghost holster isn’t an ideal thing for fighting or moving around the world with.

Also, as that video I posted talks about, he learned the tactical stuff and instructed a large number of the Army’s SOF, and still learned a lot about shooting by competing. It’s not just something to have fun with.

Not here no, but I have seen more people than not say it's training and have heard in various classes run by instructors who have made their name in the gaming world say "competition is the only way you get better". Not only is that not true, it's disingenuous.

There are plenty paradigms of training which don't involve the very clear and seriously disregarded pitfalls of gaming. In a perfect world you'd train FoF with different partners every single day at 100% each time.

[thopkins22]

Not here no, but I have seen more people than not say it's training and have heard in various classes run by instructors who have made their name in the gaming world say "competition is the only way you get better". Not only is that not true, it's disingenuous.

There are plenty paradigms of training which don't involve the very clear and seriously disregarded pitfalls of gaming. In a perfect world you'd train FoF with different partners every single day at 100% each time.

I’d argue the idea that nothing but force on force is ideal...in that I believe cross training is ideal. But in general we may not be as different as I thought.

I don’t believe it’s training any more than I believe classes are training. I think of classes as learning where I’ll take things from to add to my actual training. I think competition can be viewed similarly. As a way to test things and see what works and what doesn’t. Obviously it takes a smart enough person to decipher what works purely because it’s a game and what isn’t.

[26 Inf]

Not here no, but I have seen more people than not say it's training and have heard in various classes run by instructors who have made their name in the gaming world say "competition is the only way you get better". Not only is that not true, it's disingenuous. In a perfect world you'd train FoF with different partners every single day at 100% each time.

I truly believe you are missing the forest for the trees with your crusade against 'the gamers.' You can learn a lot from competition. The trick is to understand what is tactically sound and what isn't.

If you look at the trainers who plussed up our military at the beginning of the GWOT, many, if not most of them, had no military or police background, they were competitive shooters, John Shaw comes to mind.

In another vein, Rob Vogel seems to have effectively moved back and forth between gaming and real-world, pretty sure he feels his efforts inpractical shooting helped him become safer as a police officer.

As I mentioned earlier, sure an individual can over do it, but that is on the individual.

In a perfect world you'd train FoF with different partners every single day at 100% each time. I don't know, that sounds like competition to me, could me wrong, though.

[hogarth]

Not here no, but I have seen more people than not say it's training and have heard in various classes run by instructors who have made their name in the gaming world say "competition is the only way you get better". Not only is that not true, it's disingenuous.

There are plenty paradigms of training which don't involve the very clear and seriously disregarded pitfalls of gaming. In a perfect world you'd train FoF with different partners every single day at 100% each time.

Yes, there are people who think running through an IDPA or USPSA match is "training". I am not one of them. I shoot 4-6 local club IDPA matches per year. What they ARE handy for is a useful "audit" of CERTAIN skills. What it gives you is practice at all of your marksmanship fundamentals, general gun handling, some LIMITED "tactics" (slicing the pie, for example), and some thinking with a gun in your hand, all under the pressure of the timer and possibly friends looking on.

^ these are worthwhile, in my opinion. While they are far from EVERYTHING, they are also not NOTHING.

Factor in that some people are very limited in terms of where they can shoot (think: urban gun owners limited to nasty indoor ranges that do not allow drawing, movement, etc.), competitive shooting provides opportunities they would not otherwise have.