.224 Valkerie conundrum

[DCB]

JP’s letter never said anything about twist rate not being sufficient to stabilize the projectiles. The letter said that the 90gr bullets were not meeting JP’s accuracy requirements. I’ve shot several JP barrels that were sub-MOA with the 88gr ELD ammo and SOME lots of 90gr Gold Medal. Also, both Frank Galli and Brian Whalen have taken JP barrels (with 88gr ammo) out to 1500 yards. JP’s current barrels are still 1:7 twist.

Also, nobody is just rechambering .223 barrels as .224 Valkyrie without major rework. The Valkyrie case is shorter and will not completely replace a .223 chamber. To change an existing .223 barrel, you would have to spin off the barrel extension, cut .060” to .080” off the back end of the barrel, reinstall the barrel extension (timed with the existing gas port), and then finish the .224 Valkyrie chamber.

Federal put the 90gr Gold Medal load on a temporary hold while they worked with Sierra to improve the 90gr SMK projectile. Within the last month or so, Federal has started to ship the improved FGMM rounds out to the public. Initial reports are that accuracy and consistency have greatly improved.

I suppose I am guilty of making assumptions when I read a letter from a manufacturer that says "our barrels aren't meeting our accuracy guarantee" and their solution is to "shoot lighter bullets" that the twist rate is the fault. I've also seen / watched some commentary (admittedly hearsay) that say manufacturers told them their barrels were made with a bad reamer.

Has JP released their updated barrels? I don't follow the 224V drama much; I assume their new barrel will be a faster twist, maybe I'm incorrect and they've already addressed the issue.

I can't be the only one with this line of thinking with stuff like this floating around:









With regards to Frank Galli and the other Criterion sponsored shooter, I have trouble trusting what they say their equipment is. I work in a similar field and what our "pros" and "media personalities" get sent is very different from what the general public actually receive, and to my knowledge most of Franks' content is shot at a very high altitude (mile or more) which will favor stability SIGNIFICANTLY over where OP is shooting.

Perhaps they were trying to move barrel blanks.... not .223/556 completed AR barrels.

This is precisely what I meant.

[markm]

With regards to Frank Galli and the other Criterion sponsored shooter, I have trouble trusting what they say their equipment is. I work in a similar field and what our "pros" and "media personalities" get sent is very different from what the general public actually receive, and to my knowledge most of Franks' content is shot at a very high altitude (mile or more) which will favor stability SIGNIFICANTLY over where OP is shooting.

Same thing in the music equipment industry. Signature model guitar stuff is almost never what the artist is actually using.

[BC98]

I suppose I am guilty of making assumptions when I read a letter from a manufacturer that says "our barrels aren't meeting our accuracy guarantee" and their solution is to "shoot lighter bullets" that the twist rate is the fault. I've also seen / watched some commentary (admittedly hearsay) that say manufacturers told them their barrels were made with a bad reamer.

Don’t know what to tell you but I’ve also spoken with folks at JP and they relayed the info about some lots of the 90gr FGMM working well and others didn’t work as well. This was born out with my own experience with JP barrels, an X-Caliber barrel, and a Craddock Precision barrel. Lots that shot bad in one barrel shot poorly in the others, as well.

Has JP released their updated barrels? I don't follow the 224V drama much; I assume their new barrel will be a faster twist, maybe I'm incorrect and they've already addressed the issue.

JP’s current barrels are 1:7 twist with a SAAMI-spec reamer, per my conversations with them.

I can't be the only one with this line of thinking with stuff like this floating around:

(Images snipped)

Federal tested stability and accuracy with 1:7 twist and several companies (CMT Tactical, Larue, JP, and Craddock) still offer 1:7 barrels that are performing well. I look at it the same way as 1:7 vs. 1:8 twist barrels for 300 BLK. It may or may not be needed, but people are going to want the 1:7 just because it’s available. With respect to the Johnny’s Reloading Bench videos, I would be more interested in him doing a comparison between the two twists with factory ammo instead of hand loads. Apart from one group, the faster twist was only marginally better. There’s nothing wrong with running a faster twist barrel but a 1:7 twist is perfectly capable of accurately shooting 90gr SMKs given a correctly cut chamber.

With regards to Frank Galli and the other Criterion sponsored shooter, I have trouble trusting what they say their equipment is. I work in a similar field and what our "pros" and "media personalities" get sent is very different from what the general public actually receive, and to my knowledge most of Franks' content is shot at a very high altitude (mile or more) which will favor stability SIGNIFICANTLY over where OP is shooting.

Neither of those guys are sponsored by Criterion and Frank purchased his rifle from JP, it wasn’t supplied. As far as I know, his rifle used off the shelf parts. I don’t know about Brian Whalen’s rifle but I believe his is also built with standard parts. Frank is very active on Sniper’s Hide and has a thread started about his JP rifle and its performance. He’s also posted a couple of videos with them shooting their Valkyrie gas guns. In terms of altitude, I believe their shooting was done at Blue Steel Ranch in NM (elevation: ~4000 ft). Markm (the OP) is in AZ and the average altitude of the state is also 4000 feet. If OP is in a drastically different altitude, then I apologize.

To answer the OP’s original question, a 6 mil drop seems VERY excessive. Even a slow 88 ELD or 90gr SMK should only need around 3 mils (per your original assumption).

[markm]

To answer the OP’s original question, a 6 mil drop seems VERY excessive. Even a slow 88 ELD or 90gr SMK should only need around 3 mils (per your original assumption).

Absolutely. This and the dismal accuracy at 100 is pointing to some big stability problem.

[BC98]

Absolutely. This and the dismal accuracy at 100 is pointing to some big stability problem.

Wilson Combat uses 1:6.5 twist barrels so stability due to twist is not likely the issue. The 90gr Fusion accuracy doesn't surprise me as I haven't really seen any exceptional accuracy with them.

As odd as it sounds, the one X-Caliber barrel I had shot the factory 88gr like crap (huge POI shift and 3 MOA+ groups at 100 yards). It shot everything else just fine. It actually shot Fusion slightly better than the ELD's...

[markm]

Do Markm (the OP) is in AZ and the average altitude of the state is also 4000 feet. If OP is in a drastically different altitude, then I apologize.

Missed this before... Elevation where we shoot is around 1400 feet.

If we get the gun back together, we may try both chronoing the ammo, and shooting through paper at distance to see if there's keyholing, etc.

[Kansaswoodguy]

Have you verified twist rate with a cleaning rod? Maybe the wrong blank was used by mistake.

[markm]

Have you verified twist rate with a cleaning rod? Maybe the wrong blank was used by mistake.

We have not.

[jaholder]

The part we don't get at all is when we tried to reach out to 500 yards. The come up to get it on target was like 6 plus mils, when is should have been 3 or less. We didn't have our truck with the chrono in the back, so we couldn't check velocity.

How could this round possible dump enough velocity to need 6 mils at 500 yards???

Have you chrono'd this load yet?

IMHO there's a lot of marketing games being played with the Valk. Ballistic performance is touted using a 24" barrel while the vast majority of the uppers and rifles sold are 18-20". Much of the load data I'm seeing from Hodgdon and others for both the Valk and the .22 Nosler makes me question the usefulness compared to 5.56 NATO, .223AI and .22/250

[markm]

Have you chrono'd this load yet?

No. The guy just took his barrel back from Pappabear. I think he's going to return it.