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Thread: Benefits of a Pistol Caliber Carbine?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I'll add that if someone in your house is willing to use a gun but isn't interested enough in shooting to learn a handgun well they'll probably enjoy training (fun + learning + easy hits = familiarity and confidence) with a 9mm carbine.

    The same person will not enjoy a rifle or shotgun near as much and wont want to shoot / learn.
    This is an excellent point.
    That is what initially drew me to them. My wife is very small framed; and, while she's an excellent shot with a pistol, she shoots my AR better. The issue is that it's just too long for her to handle comfortably while moving around. I thought it would be a good compromise for her, and maybe make a good truck gun.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by everready73 View Post
    Another advantage for a PCC would be ammo compatibility with your handgun of choice
    Magazine compatibility too, since my PCC uses Glock Mags.

    My PCC is 100% reliable, but it gets dirty sooner, necessitating much more frequent cleaning intervals.

  3. #23
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    I have always wondered about the popularity of these things myself. I recently saw a post in the AR pistol thread that got me thinking once again about pistol caliber carbines seeing as how an AR pistol is so similar to a carbine in every aspect other than the stupid law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klingkong251 View Post
    Both my pistols. Top one is a 7.5 inch 300 blackout build which folds up nicely in a backpack for a vehicle gun. Bottom one is my suppressed AR-9 that sits beside my bed at night. Also have a 10.5 inch 223 upper that I use on the same lower as the top gun.

    Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

    Why would a 9mm be chosen as a HD gun over the .300 Blackout, when the .300 can use much more effective supersonic ammo? My HD gun is an 11.3" .300 Blackout. It has both a pistol, and an SBR lower, but I shoot only the Barns 110 gr Vor-Tx, as going with the subs would only give me pistol caliber like performance.

    My take has always been the reason to go to the bigger weapon was to get the harder hitting round.

    I have only one pistol caliber carbine, but it's a .44 mag lever gun. Putting a .44 magnum through a 17" barrel gets you damn near 30-30 power at 100 or 150 yd range, with twice as many in the tube mag, so different story...
    Last edited by daddyusmaximus; 03-10-19 at 09:27.
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  4. #24
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    Personally, having owned several pccs, I think how it's set up is a big factor.
    I think the gains are that while you have only the power of a pistol cartridge, you get the 4 point contact of a rifle, so for those who don't train a lot, accuracy is easier. While the longer barrel won't help a lot, it probably helps most if using +P ammo. Pistol calibers tend to run out of gain at around 10"-12" of barrel. Less blast indoors. While commonality of ammo is often mentioned, unless the mags are also shared, it will be of little use during any confrontation.
    Pccs really shine when they are a compact package. The mp5, unless it's the "k" model, is no smaller than an AR pistol, or short sbr. Most of the carbines are the same. The 16" barrel pretty much takes away the one area that made it worth while. Something small, like the size of the old Mac 10, as an sbr makes the caliber tradeoff mean something.
    I have a b&t tp9 sbr, it's shorter than my 10" AR pistol. Install the suppressor, it's only a bit longer than the AR pistol. Lighter. About a 6" barrel gives just a tad more velocity, no, not equal to rifle, but no loss over pistol.
    Once the pcc is rifle sized and weight, then the only reason to use it, I think, is mag commonality, lower blast, lower collateral damage.
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  5. #25
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    Don’t forget that an increase in velocity is not always a good thing, if it causes the projectile to underpenetrate. I’ve only seen one PCC gel test, and it was pretty bad, so choose your ammo wisely.
    RLTW

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Misses. This is not an issue that many bring up, instead talking about over-penetration, or lack thereof, with the rifle cartridges.

    In an urban environment a miss with a PCC has a shorter downrange lethal zone than a miss with a rifle.

    Of course, the trade off for that 'safety' is decreased effectiveness when compared to the rifle cartridge.

    HD-wise, the decibel difference between a PCC and an SBR is significant.

    Anything you use for HD ought to be 100% reliable. Whether your PCC meets that criteria should be a consideration.

    Another consideration is the likelihood of encountering armored assailants.
    But the pistol rnd will pass through typical materials found in urban buildings more so than the 5.55 all things being equal. Which of the two the greater concern? 9mm being the worst of the typical duty loads for that I recall due to mass vs cross sectional size. I'm not sure how that applies to other rifle rnds but 5.56 being by far the most common, I'm narrowing to that comparison. 7.62, 300blk, etc another matter no doubt.
    Last edited by WillBrink; 03-10-19 at 13:21.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    But the pistol rnd will pass through typical materials found in urban buildings more so than the 5.55 all things being equal. Which of the two the greater concern? 9mm being the worst of the typical duty loads for that I recall due to mass vs cross sectional size. I'm not sure how that applies to other rifle rnds but 5.56 being by far the most common, I'm narrowing to that comparison. 7.62, 300blk, etc another matter no doubt.
    Keep in mind here, I'm playing devils advocate -

    1) know of any incidences of injuries to uninvolved third parties by barrier penetration/over-penetration of pistol caliber rounds?

    2) know of any downrange injuries to uninvolved third parties by missed rifle or pistol rounds? Was the barrier penetration capability, or lack thereof, of the round an issue in those cases?

    Here's an example:

    WICHITA, KS—Ross A. Williams, 40, Claremore, Okla., has been sentenced to 40 years without parole for killing a bystander during a shootout with police after a bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas, U.S. Attorney Lanny Welch said today.

    Williams pleaded guilty to one count of bank robbery, one count of murder with a firearm during a crime of violence, and one count of attempting to kill police officers to avoid arrest. In his plea, Williams admitted that about 5 p.m. Feb. 17, 2009, he robbed the Bank of America at 1401 West Eighth Street in Coffeyville, Kan. He fled the bank on a bicycle. A few blocks away, he put the bicycle in the back of his black Isuzu Ascender sports utility vehicle and drove away. A high speed chase began when Coffeyville police officers spotted the SUV and attempted to follow. The chase took place on the streets of Coffeyville and lasted about five minutes.

    Williams drove up Grant Street to the outskirts of town. He drove through a wire cable blocking the road and then ran into a tree. He immediately got out of his vehicle and used a handgun to fire at police officers, striking the windshields of their vehicles. Then he reached into the back seat of his vehicle for an SKS assault rifle, from which he fired about 30 rounds.

    One of the rounds fired by Williams missed the police cars and traveled about a quarter mile down Grant Street to strike Willie Neal, Jr., who was standing outside his home. Neal and his brother had gone outside when Williams passed their house while being pursued by police. From where Neal was standing, he could not see Williams or Williams’ car. A round from Williams’ assault rifle entered Neal’s left front thigh and traveled into his right thigh, severing both femoral arteries. On the way to the hospital, Neal died of the wounds.

    After emptying the assault rifle, Williams fled to a wooded area and police set up a perimeter. At about 8 o’clock that evening Williams was arrested.


    https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ka...0/kc040210.htm

    I've kind of always been a 'even in a tactical situation, be sure of your target, backstop and beyond' type of guy. In an urban area the downrange danger area of a 5.56 is significantly greater than that of the pistol caliber carbines which we are discussing.

    Not a reason to get rid of the patrol rifle, just pointing out something to be considered, and something which may sway some folks' opinions.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 03-10-19 at 16:06.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Keep in mind here, I'm playing devils advocate -

    1) know of any incidences of injuries to uninvolved third parties by barrier penetration/over-penetration of pistol caliber rounds?

    2) know of any downrange injuries to uninvolved third parties by missed rifle or pistol rounds? Was the barrier penetration capability, or lack thereof, of the round an issue in those cases?

    Here's an example:

    WICHITA, KS—Ross A. Williams, 40, Claremore, Okla., has been sentenced to 40 years without parole for killing a bystander during a shootout with police after a bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas, U.S. Attorney Lanny Welch said today.

    Williams pleaded guilty to one count of bank robbery, one count of murder with a firearm during a crime of violence, and one count of attempting to kill police officers to avoid arrest. In his plea, Williams admitted that about 5 p.m. Feb. 17, 2009, he robbed the Bank of America at 1401 West Eighth Street in Coffeyville, Kan. He fled the bank on a bicycle. A few blocks away, he put the bicycle in the back of his black Isuzu Ascender sports utility vehicle and drove away. A high speed chase began when Coffeyville police officers spotted the SUV and attempted to follow. The chase took place on the streets of Coffeyville and lasted about five minutes.

    Williams drove up Grant Street to the outskirts of town. He drove through a wire cable blocking the road and then ran into a tree. He immediately got out of his vehicle and used a handgun to fire at police officers, striking the windshields of their vehicles. Then he reached into the back seat of his vehicle for an SKS assault rifle, from which he fired about 30 rounds.

    One of the rounds fired by Williams missed the police cars and traveled about a quarter mile down Grant Street to strike Willie Neal, Jr., who was standing outside his home. Neal and his brother had gone outside when Williams passed their house while being pursued by police. From where Neal was standing, he could not see Williams or Williams’ car. A round from Williams’ assault rifle entered Neal’s left front thigh and traveled into his right thigh, severing both femoral arteries. On the way to the hospital, Neal died of the wounds.

    After emptying the assault rifle, Williams fled to a wooded area and police set up a perimeter. At about 8 o’clock that evening Williams was arrested.


    https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ka...0/kc040210.htm

    I've kind of always been a 'even in a tactical situation, be sure of your target, backstop and beyond' type of guy. In an urban area the downrange danger area of a 5.56 is significantly greater than that of the pistol caliber carbines which we are discussing.

    Not a reason to get rid of the patrol rifle, just pointing out something to be considered, and something which may sway some folks' opinions.
    All good points. I'm mostly thinking in terms of an HD perspective and someone firing inside the dwelling. If you miss with the 5.56 long gun vs the PCC, you may be less likely to see it go through the walls and such and out into the area, unless it say goes through a window. It's an interesting conundrum though and deserves real consideration as to which of those potential issues to focus on. I'm sure the loads in 5.56 and PCC is also a variable in that risk/benefit equation.
    - Will

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  9. #29
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    I wonder if it really matters in a modern house. Drywall, plywood and siding (or fake stone/brick). In my entrance way and dining room my neighbor is only 2 drywalls away. 9, 555, 32acp....I don't think it'll make a difference.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    I wonder if it really matters in a modern house. Drywall, plywood and siding (or fake stone/brick). In my entrance way and dining room my neighbor is only 2 drywalls away. 9, 555, 32acp....I don't think it'll make a difference.
    Sure, something like Hornady 60gr TAP Urban will bust up pretty good if you miss and hit an intermediate barrier. 40gr. TAP Urban pretty much vaporizes.

    The problem in an urban environment, IMO, is someone getting in the way of a miss before it hits a barrier.
    "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford

    “You are responsible for your actions, but the world doesn’t turn around you, so it’s important that you find something bigger than yourself to work for, a way for you to make a difference.” - Drew Dix, MOH VN '68

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