Benefits of a Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[daddyusmaximus]

Keep in mind here, I'm playing devils advocate -

1) know of any incidences of injuries to uninvolved third parties by barrier penetration/over-penetration of pistol caliber rounds?

2) know of any downrange injuries to uninvolved third parties by missed rifle or pistol rounds? Was the barrier penetration capability, or lack thereof, of the round an issue in those cases?

Here's an example:

WICHITA, KS—Ross A. Williams, 40, Claremore, Okla., has been sentenced to 40 years without parole for killing a bystander during a shootout with police after a bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas, U.S. Attorney Lanny Welch said today.

Williams pleaded guilty to one count of bank robbery, one count of murder with a firearm during a crime of violence, and one count of attempting to kill police officers to avoid arrest. In his plea, Williams admitted that about 5 p.m. Feb. 17, 2009, he robbed the Bank of America at 1401 West Eighth Street in Coffeyville, Kan. He fled the bank on a bicycle. A few blocks away, he put the bicycle in the back of his black Isuzu Ascender sports utility vehicle and drove away. A high speed chase began when Coffeyville police officers spotted the SUV and attempted to follow. The chase took place on the streets of Coffeyville and lasted about five minutes.

Williams drove up Grant Street to the outskirts of town. He drove through a wire cable blocking the road and then ran into a tree. He immediately got out of his vehicle and used a handgun to fire at police officers, striking the windshields of their vehicles. Then he reached into the back seat of his vehicle for an SKS assault rifle, from which he fired about 30 rounds.

One of the rounds fired by Williams missed the police cars and traveled about a quarter mile down Grant Street to strike Willie Neal, Jr., who was standing outside his home. Neal and his brother had gone outside when Williams passed their house while being pursued by police. From where Neal was standing, he could not see Williams or Williams’ car. A round from Williams’ assault rifle entered Neal’s left front thigh and traveled into his right thigh, severing both femoral arteries. On the way to the hospital, Neal died of the wounds.

After emptying the assault rifle, Williams fled to a wooded area and police set up a perimeter. At about 8 o’clock that evening Williams was arrested.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ka...0/kc040210.htm

I've kind of always been a 'even in a tactical situation, be sure of your target, backstop and beyond' type of guy. In an urban area the downrange danger area of a 5.56 is significantly greater than that of the pistol caliber carbines which we are discussing.

Not a reason to get rid of the patrol rifle, just pointing out something to be considered, and something which may sway some folks' opinions.

The jury wasn't sentencing a man defending his home from criminals...

They were sentencing a criminal shooting it out with the police.

I think an accidental miss while defending ones own life (and that of his/her family) will play out a bit different in court.

I do try to be careful of my target , (and what is beyond) but hitting that target (before they get me), and with the most effective round I have, is priority #1.

[26 Inf]

The jury wasn't sentencing a man defending his home from criminals...

They were sentencing a criminal shooting it out with the police.

I think an accidental miss while defending ones own life (and that of his/her family) will play out a bit different in court.

I do try to be careful of my target , (and what is beyond) but hitting that target (before they get me), and with the most effective round I have, is priority #1.

As I posted earlier, I', playing devil's advocate here.

The point of the post was to illustrate the downrange danger area of the rifle versus the pistol, not making any statement about sentencing. Although you are correct, a homeowner would likely be charged with negligent homicide/manslaughter.

I think it is important we all understand that defending yourself/your home, etc. doesn't protect you from criminal, or civil, liability for injuries sustained by uninvolved third parties.

ETA: According to the Coffeyville officers, the bullet that killed this man went through a thicket of trees before striking him.

[HardToHandle]

Sure, something like Hornady 60gr TAP Urban will bust up pretty good if you miss and hit an intermediate barrier. 40gr. TAP Urban pretty much vaporizes.

The problem in an urban environment, IMO, is someone getting in the way of a miss before it hits a barrier.

1)A buddy of mine had a rental townhouse built in the early 2000’s, i.e., cheap commercial construction. The neighbor fired several shots through a shared wall, transited the 20’ width of the garage, out the other side through wallboard then vinyl siding, over a 30’ grassy area and cleanly entered the next set of town houses. All the holes gave no appreciable signs of tumbling.

Looking at the entry and exits, it looked like a 9mm/.38 Special size hole, but could have been any number of cartridges.

2) A few years ago I had some analysis done on a nickel steel vessel holed by a rifle cartridge bullet. My guess was it was a .3087.62x51. The guys I was working with eyeballed for about 30 seconds and said “30.06”. When we looked at visual evidence, I was amazed at the telltale differences between the two rounds and the threshold velocity impacts. Speed kills.

3) Lots of folks have done “tests” but LooseRounds has one of the most helpful 5.56mm scenarios; most enlightening on the 75gr TAP results-
http://looserounds.com/2018/07/10/wh...ts-find-out-2/

[echo5whiskey]

I had no idea this thing came back to life. So it seems for HD a standard SBR/AR Pistol would do better for lack of barrier penetration (with the right ammo, of course); but for a truck gun, a PCC might fare better for reduced collateral damage. Is that a fair assessment?

[Marine Corporal]

I use a 9mm PCC for home defense. There are some benefits to it over a rifle. It isn’t just a range toy for cheap ammo plinking like some imply. Entry teams throughout the world have been successfully using 9mm sub guns for years with great results.

Pros.

Shares ammo and magazines with my wife’s Glock that’s on her nightstand. We could reload each other if need be.

If something goes bump in the night, I can shoot it without the excessive flash, concussion, and noise that a rifle would produce. I’m not in the habit of sleeping with hearing protection on. I have shot both indoors without hearing protection. It’s pretty damned disorientating with a rifle. More so than most think. Especially if hugging a wall.

[B Cart]

If something goes bump in the night, I can shoot it without the excessive flash, concussion, and noise that a rifle would produce. I’m not in the habit of sleeping with hearing protection on. I have shot both indoors without hearing protection. It’s pretty damned disorientating with a rifle. More so than most think. Especially if hugging a wall.

A PCC definitely has an advantage there with standard muzzle devices, but I prefer the higher velocity of a rifle, which is why my HD gun is a suppressed 8" 300 BLK SBR. I think a short suppressed 300 BLK is a phenomenal weapon for HD/CQB if your state allows suppressors. I was just running drills on steel yesterday and i am always amazed how quiet that round is suppressed. And the Barnes Vor-TX 110 gr round does very well on soft targets.

I love my PCCs, and would feel confident using one for HD, but still prefer a suppressed SBR in rifle caliber whenever possible.

[Marine Corporal]

A PCC definitely has an advantage there with standard muzzle devices, but I prefer the higher velocity of a rifle, which is why my HD gun is a suppressed 8" 300 BLK SBR. I think a short suppressed 300 BLK is a phenomenal weapon for HD/CQB if your state allows suppressors. I was just running drills on steel yesterday and i am always amazed how quiet that round is suppressed. And the Barnes Vor-TX 110 gr round does very well on soft targets.

I love my PCCs, and would feel confident using one for HD, but still prefer a suppressed SBR in rifle caliber whenever possible.

Yeah. I would run that if my state allowed suppressors. So I’m kind of stuck with my setup.

How does that supersonic 110 gr sound through the suppressor though?

[B Cart]

Yeah. I would run that if my state allowed suppressors. So I’m kind of stuck with my setup.

How does that supersonic 110 gr sound through the suppressor though?

Ya, a PCC is definitely a great option when you can't run a suppressor. I have Flash cans on my PCCs that project the blast forward, and it makes the noise even nicer for the shooter.

The 110s aren't as quiet as shooting 200-220gr subs, but still MUCH quieter and less obtrusive than without a suppressor. Still a good indoor gun, even when shooting the 110s. And to be honest, you could use 200gr subs for HD as well, and i'm sure they would do just fine against an intruder if needed, i just prefer the performance of the 110s.

[Marine Corporal]

Ya, a PCC is definitely a great option when you can't run a suppressor. I have Flash cans on my PCCs that project the blast forward, and it makes the noise even nicer for the shooter.

The 110s aren't as quiet as shooting 200-220gr subs, but still MUCH quieter and less obtrusive than without a suppressor. Still a good indoor gun, even when shooting the 110s. And to be honest, you could use 200gr subs for HD as well, and i'm sure they would do just fine against an intruder if needed, i just prefer the performance of the 110s.

So you just get the crack but not the loud boom and flash shooting a supersonic through a suppressor is what I’m guessing. If so, that’s still preferable. I need to move.

[1168]

So you just get the crack but not the loud boom and flash shooting a supersonic through a suppressor is what I’m guessing. If so, that’s still preferable. I need to move.

Bring your votes to SC.