Benefits of a Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[Firefly]

The last time I messed with SMG anything in any unironic sense was 7 or 8 years ago if not longer. I like UMPs though.

But yeah they are pretty much dead or toys.

That, plus over-penetration with ball ammo (mil), the rise of the Mk18 and specialty 5.56 ammo, such as Mk262 and others. For putting in work, there’s just no good reason for 9mm carbines, in most cases. This includes typical CQB work in residential, industrial, and commercial structures. There are a few SMG’s still in use for particular niches in .mil SOF, such as the MP5k and MP7. But top level door kickers are rocking 5.56 when reasonably possible. For cops raiding meth labs, a suppressed MP5 may still have value to reduce risk of fire/explosion, but thats out of my wheelhouse, just something small fry “SWAT” type cops have discussed with me.

For home D, I’m sure a PCC works fine, but I reach for my M4, personally.

and Suppressed shorty ARs are used for that. It can still explode on you though...

oof.

[Marine Corporal]

Marine Corporal- Check your lane. And if you're going to reference historical usage rather than current, make that and the foundation from which you speak clear.

Everyone else- Talk about info and issues, not people. No need for name-calling and swipes.

Check my lane? I never insulted anyone and I’m not talking of only historical usage only. It’s still used to this day. I made that clear.

For those that aren’t aware, the MP5 is still used to this day for shipboard and submarine operations. Basically any operation where things will be tight and enclosed where an SBR’s 10.5 inch barrel length is still too long. SEALS, Recon, Raiders, Marine SRT teams, and other militaries to this day still use them for specialized operations. That’s easily referenced for anyone that thinks otherwise. They aren’t outdated. They serve a specialized purpose where a one size fits all cannot apply.

[Firefly]

For those that aren’t aware, the MP5 is still used to this day for shipboard and submarine operations. Basically any operation where things will be tight and enclosed where an SBR’s 10.5 inch barrel length is still too long. SEALS, Recon, Raiders, Marine SRT teams, and other militaries to this day still use them for specialized operations. That’s easily referenced for anyone that thinks otherwise. They aren’t outdated. They serve a specialized purpose where a one size fits all cannot apply.

Don't take this the wrong way or too hard but....I can't speak to those outfits you have named but even if SMGs are seeing airplay with them; it is still incredibly niche.

They make 556 rounds that are so light and wont overpenetrate that will do way more than Pistol Caliber anything.

For the money, you could easier get a normal gun. I had an SMG at the tail end of its relevance and will soundly admit not once have I said "sigh....I wish this,rifle fired 9mm"

.223 doesnt even recoil that much more than a 9mm (to me anyways).

Again, we are talking home defense.
I dunno about boarding a ship as that is nothing I do

[1168]

and Suppressed shorty ARs are used for that. It can still explode on you though...

oof.

Yeah, like I said, out of my wheelhouse. But there are at least a handful of cops that debate this subject, also. I’m not sure where the facts and evidence lie on best gun for raiding meth labs.

The hurricane effed up my ammo budget, so I’m just going to drink some whisky and watch this thread.

For those that aren’t aware, the MP5 is still used to this day for shipboard and submarine operations. Basically any operation where things will be tight and enclosed where an SBR’s 10.5 inch barrel length is still too long. SEALS, Recon, Raiders, Marine SRT teams, and other militaries to this day still use them for specialized operations. That’s easily referenced for anyone that thinks otherwise. They aren’t outdated. They serve a specialized purpose where a one size fits all cannot apply.

There are plenty of dudes, including in the organizations you mention, that do VBSS with 5.56 guns. The SMG is a niche weapon, and when used, there are frequently other guys in the team with other weapons.

[Marine Corporal]

Don't take this the wrong way or too hard but....I can't speak to those outfits you have named but even if SMGs are seeing airplay with them; it is still incredibly niche.

They make 556 rounds that are so light and wont overpenetrate that will do way more than Pistol Caliber anything.

For the money, you could easier get a normal gun. I had an SMG at the tail end of its relevance and will soundly admit not once have I said "sigh....I wish this,rifle fired 9mm"

.223 doesnt even recoil that much more than a 9mm (to me anyways).

Again, we are talking home defense.
I dunno about boarding a ship as that is nothing I do

I would have no need to take it hard or the wrong way. You aren’t insulting me but you are correct. Niche. It’s used for a special purpose. Just like any other tool. That’s what I was trying to explain but some here... I don’t know if anyone here has been aboard a military vessel. There are times that the walls touch you on both sides. The stairways are so narrow. Etc. A 10.5 inch .300 AAC SBR with suppressor is still too long.

And as far as home defense goes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing a PCC over a rifle for home defense where at most we are talking 15 yards. At least in my home. For anyone to say it’s inadequate than it would also be inadequate to use a pistol. I wouldn’t want a loud rifle with flash and concussion in a 2 bedroom condo. I have shot both indoors. If anyone were to as well, they may see things differently if they weren’t running a can. And when you run subsonic rifle ammo through a can running at less than 1000 FPS, you just turned that rifle into a pistol caliber. Neither will penetrate plate armor.

I guess my issue here is that people think that in a pistol it has adequate stopping power but if you add a stock to iit, it no longer has stopping power.

[Bang4Buck]

And as far as home defense goes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing a PCC over a rifle for home defense where at most we are talking 15 yards. At least in my home. For anyone to say it’s inadequate than it would also be inadequate to use a pistol. I wouldn’t want a loud rifle with flash and concussion in a 2 bedroom condo. I have shot both indoors. If anyone were to as well, they may see things differently if they weren’t running a can.

I guess my issue here is that people think that in a pistol it has adequate stopping power but if you add a stock to iit, it no longer has stopping power.

All other things held constant, you're saying there is nothing wrong with choosing a tool that has less than half the kinetic energy of something else. Let alone the tumbling and yawing and such.

I don't think anyone said that a pistol suddenly lacks stopping power. We've said it has less stopping power than an AR. If you can get to your AR, use it. Otherwise, use the next best available tool.

[1168]

I would have no need to take it hard or the wrong way. You aren’t insulting me but you are correct. Niche. It’s used for a special purpose. Just like any other tool. That’s what I was trying to explain but some here... I don’t know if anyone here has been aboard a military vessel. There are times that the walls touch you on both sides. The stairways are so narrow. Etc. A 10.5 inch .300 AAC SBR with suppressor is still too long.

And as far as home defense goes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing a PCC over a rifle for home defense where at most we are talking 15 yards. At least in my home. For anyone to say it’s inadequate than it would also be inadequate to use a pistol. I wouldn’t want a loud rifle with flash and concussion in a 2 bedroom condo. I have shot both indoors. If anyone were to as well, they may see things differently if they weren’t running a can.

I guess my issue here is that people think that in a pistol it has adequate stopping power but if you add a stock to iit, it no longer has stopping power.

(Pecker measuring removed here)

Again, PCC’s and SMG’s are probably fine. Choose a projectile that is likely to perform at PCC velocity. Or a real rifle.

[26 Inf]

Check my lane? I never insulted anyone and I’m not talking of only historical usage only. It’s still used to this day. I made that clear.

I'm kind of with you on the check my lane deal - IMO JPMuscle should have earned a trip to banville with the 'eat crayons' and '12 year-old' remarks.

That being said, to be accurate no one said the SMG was obsolete they said it was 'largely obsolete.' Just as revolvers are 'largely obsolete' in law enforcement because of advances in pistols.

IDK if you'd been lurking here before your join date, but the rifle/shotgun/pistol/PCC for home defense has been cussed and discussed several times in the past.

The advantage of anything .223/5.56 over a pistol caliber is the ability to penetrate body armor, which is one of the reasons the SMG's quickly fell out of favor with LE tactical teams.

The primary advantage of the PCC over the carbine/SBR in home defense is as you mention - noise. The disadvantage of any long gun to the searcher/hunter in a building search - be it carbine/SBR/PCC/shotgun - is that they generally tie up both hands and their muzzles very easily precede you into spaces giving the bad guy early warning.

As a popo I never (on purpose) carried a long gun to actively search, to cover - yes, to search - no. Likewise in an HD situation my primary plan is to hunker and wait, therefore a long gun is appropriate. If I have to clear it will be with a pistol.

I know Firefly has a lot of time behind an MP5. I've got a few thousand rounds under my own belt. It isn't without regret that we relegate the SMG to 'niche' use, but it is reality.

[MegademiC]

If Im buying a 9mm with a stock, its going to be tiny- like a machinepistol (think mp9).
Yes its niche.

[Bang4Buck]

I almost bought one of these to use with a couple of my glocks. Great budget option workaround for PCC: https://caagearup.com/shop/