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Thread: Is 9mm The Way To Go?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I think the spectrum is narrower than many think.

    For example, on a scale of 1-10 of tissue damage assuming the same depth hole, a .32 FMJ isn't a "2" and a 230 +p .45 JHP isn't an "8".

    I think it's more accurate to say the .32 FMJ is a "3" and the .45 +P JHP is a "5".

    Your 7's and 8's are going to be rifles and shotguns.

    Keep in mind the Police and military greatly consider barrier penetration in their choices and not just at close range. A 9x19 or other "service caliber" makes sense for them.

    I'll carry a .32 acp and up as a primary sidearm. (in something bigger than a "pocket" gun)
    I could be wrong, but isn’t 9mm the first caliber (as in smallest) to penetrate and expand to the FBI standard? Anything smaller and I believe you have to pick between the two with the priority being penetration. With the current size of service-caliber pistols (9mm and up), I find it hard to argue against carrying in such calibers.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    This is one issue where I'm the prophet in the wilderness. I've been hooted by the M4 members, and threatened with Banning by saying this, but I will say that I'm one of the very few M4 members who have actually seen bullets that have killed people, and have studied anatomy, and physiology, seen the results of urban shootings, and have actually talked with trained people who have seen the results of shootings, namely ER doctors and medical examiners.

    The upshot is this: (1) all the service calibers work the same, and (2) there's no discernable difference between hollow point and solid (i.e. FMJ or SWC) bullets.

    I know this violates the earnest beliefs of shooters, lawmen, soldiers, and the like; but there it is. Bullets kill by penetrating vital organs. Bullets that penetrate vital organs kill people; bullets that do not, don't. This is true of all bullets, from .22 short to 500 S&W magnum. There is no such thing as stopping power, knockdown power, hydrostatic shock, temporary wound cavitation, or any of the other concepts that are repeated as sober truth but bear no origin in the real world.

    An ER doctor or a ME cannot tell the caliber, or the construction of the bullet, from examining the entrance, the wound track, or the exit.

    I think handguns can be divided into three categories:

    Mouseguns -- .22, .25, .32. They are quite deadly but the problem is lack of penetration (not lack of expansion as most people think). The little bullets are light and slow, and they can bounce off the sternum, deflect off a rib, or bounce off the skull, and never get to the vitals. The tiny guns are hard to shoot accurately.

    Hand Cannons -- 10mm, .41 Mag, and anything bigger. They certainly will do the job, but not any better than lesser powered weapons. A .400 hole in a heart is just as deadly whether it comes out of a .40 S&W, a 10mm, or a .41 magnum. If a magnum bullet does not hit a vital organ, it's no deadlier than a "lesser" round. The guns are typically large and have limited ammo capacity, and heavy recoil inhibits rapid accurate fire.

    Service calibers -- .45, .40, 9mm, .357, .38. They all work the same, as far as anybody can tell. They provide at least adequate penetration with good ammo capacity and controllable recoil.



    Among them, the nine really is king because it combines hi capacity with low recoil and gets the job done as well as any of them. All shooters should read the FBI report on this. They found that their trainees shot better with the nine than the others; they also found that their elite units also shot better with the nine. I came to this conclusion independently about the same time they did, and gave up my compact .45 carry gun in favor of a 9mm with double the capacity and much less recoil.

    So I carry a hi-cap 9mm, and I carry 124 grain NATO ball ammo. This ammo is inexpensive, functions perfectly, and has adequate penetration through barriers and with large assailants.

    To answer the question: if you have to shoot to save your life, in almost all situations, the 9mm is fine.
    I have said the same and was banned for it. You are 200 percent correct. A .380 fmj that penetrates a heart for example will do just the same as a .38 Special, 9mm, .357 Sig, and .357 Magnum of the same diameter. The extra grain weights or speed mean nothing. It either penetrates a vital or a doesn't.

    In a hollow point it either reaches the vital or it stops short. If it reaches the vital, it isn't going to matter if the expanded projectile is .416 or .680. We are talking millimeters here. Very small in the grand scheme of things and the heart or brain isn't going to care if it's witha .355 sized hole or a .683 sized hole.

    Shot placement to vitals are the only thing that matters. A shot to the stomach or lung with an expanded .45 ACP will eventually kill you later if not treated but a shot to the heart or brain with a .38 Special will kill you in seconds.

    Energy dump, expansion, ect is all marketing to sell bullets. The only advantage a hollow point offers is the slightly larger chance that it could graze a vital where the solid projectile would have missed but the hollow point has to get there. The FBI Ballistics Manual even says as such and that's why they have established bare minimum parameters in gel to measure if it'll have sufficient penetration on a real body. They even say that penetration comes first and expansion comes second.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    I could be wrong, but isn’t 9mm the first caliber (as in smallest) to penetrate and expand to the FBI standard? Anything smaller and I believe you have to pick between the two with the priority being penetration. With the current size of service-caliber pistols (9mm and up), I find it hard to argue against carrying in such calibers.
    9mm is the first caliber that can expand and reliably reach vitals after expansion with the right high quality bullet.

    .380 is iffy. It barely makes the mark after expansion. In fmj or hard cast, it's a totally different story. It'll reach a vital the same as any 9mm and both will exit on most cases on frontal shots.

  4. #14
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    An important factor to consider is how much training ammunition can you buy for your money. Generally speaking, you can buy more 9mm training ammunition than 38 special, 40 S&W or 45 ACP for the same money. The more good trigger time you get in with your pistol, the better prepared you will be if faced with a lethal threat.
    Train 2 Win

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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    9mm is the first caliber that can expand and reliably reach vitals after expansion with the right high quality bullet.

    .380 is iffy. It barely makes the mark after expansion. In fmj or hard cast, it's a totally different story. It'll reach a vital the same as any 9mm and both will exit on most cases on frontal shots.
    Yup!

    And as far as penetration is concerned a .32 fmj will also make it, often with a tumble or two and be less likely to exit. Less recoil in a blow-back gun, too. (Like JMB, I'm a fan)

    9mm has it over .32/.380/.38 spec when it comes to barriers, too. That can be good or bad.

  6. #16
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    Here we go again. It's been what, just a couple of weeks since the last thread that went this direction?
    Last edited by Tx_Aggie; 01-14-19 at 17:37.

  7. #17
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    9mmvs40vs45.gif

    Green is 9mm. The object in the background for scale is a 25 Cent coin.

    Blue is .40, which is said to be much superior to 9mm. It is 0.5mm larger in radius than 9mm, which is .02 inches. One fiftieth of an inch.

    Red is .45, which is said to be much superior to either .40 or 9mm. It is 1.85mm larger in radius than 9mm, which is .07 inches.

    Looking at it this way, there isn't a difference that anybody can tell, when it hits a person.
    Last edited by Uni-Vibe; 01-14-19 at 17:19.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tx_Aggie View Post
    Here we go again. It's been what, just a couple of weeks since the last thread that went this direction?
    What is it that you want? For caliber questions to never, ever be discussed on a gun forum unless you agree with them?

    Fine. This post is for you only so as to make you feel better. Energy dump and expansion are real things and only those matter when incapacitating someone. A .45 is 100 times larger then a 9mm. A hollow point does explosive damage and a fmj just makes a tiny hole. People never died in the past with target ammo. It wasn't until the hollow point was invented that han handguns actually became lethal.

    Happy?
    Last edited by wtm75; 01-14-19 at 17:56.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    Shot placement to vitals are the only thing that matters. A shot to the stomach or lung with an expanded .45 ACP will eventually kill you later if not treated but a shot to the heart or brain with a .38 Special will kill you in seconds.

    The only advantage a hollow point offers is the slightly larger chance that it could graze a vital where the solid projectile would have missed but the hollow point has to get there.
    I guess I agree with most of what you said. Didn’t one of the turds in the FBI Miami gunfight get shot in the ticket early in the fight? I’m pretty sure he would have died even if he took the shot while lying on an operating table yet he fought on for quite a while. Also, I believe a big advantage of HP is it’s less likely to exit the person you shot and bounce around. I also don’t think that the energy transfer on the target between FMJ passing through and HP coming to a stop is make believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    What is it that you want? For caliber questions to never, ever be discussed on a gun forum unless you agree with them?

    Fine. This post is for you only so as to make you feel better. Energy dump and expansion are real things and only those matter when incapacitating someone. A .45 is 100 times larger then a 9mm. A hollow point does explosive damage and a fmj just makes a tiny hole. People never died in the past with target ammo. It wasn't until the hollow point was invented that han handguns actually became lethal.

    Happy?
    You were so close, but forgot to mention that .40 is the perfect mix of 9mm penetration and .45 stopping power that instantaneously vaporizes all living things. (Sarcasm for the dull light bulbs).

    Anyway... where are Gary Roberts and Buford Boone when you need them? Someone turn on the “ballistic expert” bat symbol.

  10. #20
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    Saw this somewhere:

    Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else are angels dancing on the head of a pin.

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