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Thread: Is 9mm The Way To Go?

  1. #21
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    If you can have enough penetration, why would you choose against also having expansion? It's just a dumb argument with service calibers because we can have both. It might not be huge difference, but I'll choose what the experts say does more damage.

    For smaller calibers choose penetration over expansion, or try to stick to a service caliber pistol.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    If you can have enough penetration, why would you choose against also having expansion? It's just a dumb argument with service calibers because we can have both. It might not be huge difference, but I'll choose what the experts say does more damage.

    For smaller calibers choose penetration over expansion, or try to stick to a service caliber pistol.
    That’s probably the best and most simple way I’ve ever heard it explained...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    If you can have enough penetration, why would you choose against also having expansion? It's just a dumb argument with service calibers because we can have both. It might not be huge difference, but I'll choose what the experts say does more damage.

    For smaller calibers choose penetration over expansion, or try to stick to a service caliber pistol.
    Because sometimes it isn't enough penetration. The 12 inch minimum is the minimum. It'll work in most cases but not all.

    The Winchester Silvertip that penetrates about 10 inches in gel failed the FBI . It stopped short of the heart by an inch or 2 after going through an arm and into the chest. An extra couple of inches more penetration in gel would probably have sufficient penetration but what if the scenario changed and it wasn't going through the front of the chest? What if it went through the arm from the side and entered the chest from the left side and had to travel the whole length of the chest from a sideways angle? What if the bullet was slowed down by a car door and then had to go through the arm and the whole left of the chest?

    These tests are done at a distance of 10 Ft. Will it behave the same at 25 yards when the velocity is slower?

    12 is good for a minimum but 18 is better. Not many hollow points make it to 18 unless you go up to 44 Magnum. If you read the FBI reports now, they are looking for deeper penetrating rounds. Many police departments including the FBI have chosen the Critical Duty that barely expands to get close to that number 18 because penetration is lacking after going through barriers. They ate sacrificing some expansion to get penetration.

    A ball round in 9 mm will usually penetrate about 27 inches in gel. An extra 9 to 10 inches in gel isn't significantly more especially when gel isn't a 1 to 1 ratio in the human body. Remember, a calibrated BB penetrates 4 inches in gel. That same BB will barely penetrate the skin on a human body.

  4. #24
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    My personal theory is that the mantra goes in circles on terminal handgun ballistic effectiveness.

    For years the .357 magnum was the end all-be all in handgun effectiveness with .45ACP very close to it. Then LE officer physical attributes changed. No longer was the average LEO 200+ pounds and brutishly strong. All of the sudden the guns just didn't hold enough rounds anymore. Hmm... So then it was 9mm. Then 9mm was found to be lacking. Then it was 10mm which was found to have the same "issues" that .357/.45 had in excessive recoil, blast, etc. Fast forward to today and we arrive back at 9mm. Hmm...

    I have an ample supply of 9mm HST and Gold Dot. It works well enough now and barring a freakish evolutionary event in human physiology it'll still work in 30 years. After that I won't care. So yes O/P, 9mm is the way to go. And it will still be the way to go until such time as it becomes too expensive in comparison to other calibers.
    Last edited by shadowrider; 01-14-19 at 20:36.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    If you can have enough penetration, why would you choose against also having expansion? It's just a dumb argument with service calibers because we can have both. It might not be huge difference, but I'll choose what the experts say does more damage.

    For smaller calibers choose penetration over expansion, or try to stick to a service caliber pistol.
    Special Agent Dove's first shot was from across the street, about a 90 foot shot. Excellent shot it was: it put a 115 grain standard pressure hollow point into Michael Platt's chest. Trouble was, it first went through Platt's arm. The bullet slipped between the ribs, tore up the right lung, expanded up nicely, and stopped about an inch from the heart. It took four minutes, 11 more gunshot wounds, and seven shot-up agents before the fight ended.

    Had the bullet not gone through the arm, it would have been over in ten seconds. Had it been a FMJ, it would have been over in ten seconds.

    The Miami FBI shootout was a failure of penetration, not expansion.

    They say about the .45, that the nine might expand, but the .45 never shrinks.

    I'd say that hollow points might penetrate, but the FMJ will.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    I guess I agree with most of what you said. Didnít one of the turds in the FBI Miami gunfight get shot in the ticket early in the fight? Iím pretty sure he would have died even if he took the shot while lying on an operating table yet he fought on for quite a while. Also, I believe a big advantage of HP is itís less likely to exit the person you shot and bounce around. I also donít think that the energy transfer on the target between FMJ passing through and HP coming to a stop is make believe.
    The Winchester Silvertip stopped short inches from his heart after going through an arm, expanding, and then going into the chest. A ball round or if they had more modern hollow points of today would have made it to his heart.
    Last edited by wtm75; 01-14-19 at 21:01.

  7. #27
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    Nevermind. Deleted.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 01-14-19 at 21:07.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    What is it that you want? For caliber questions to never, ever be discussed on a gun forum unless you agree with them?

    Fine. This post is for you only so as to make you feel better. Energy dump and expansion are real things and only those matter when incapacitating someone. A .45 is 100 times larger then a 9mm. A hollow point does explosive damage and a fmj just makes a tiny hole. People never died in the past with target ammo. It wasn't until the hollow point was invented that han handguns actually became lethal.

    Happy?
    I said none of that, but thanks for the thoughtful, considerate response...

    There is a small but vocal, and stubbon, contingent of members who will thread-jack any question or post that has to do with handgun caliber, for the sole purpose of preaching the superiority of the holy full-metal-jacket.

    They insist that anyone who chooses modern expanding ammo does so for no other reason than that they have been duped by bullet manufacturers, and have even included state and local LE, the FBI, and even SOCOM (all groups of guys who actually shoot people with expanding handgun bullets) in their list of idiots who are too stupid to know they should be using FMJs and/or Hardcast instead of expanding pistol bullets.

    The constant thread jacking by a couple of stubborn members is tiring and really just undermines productive discussion in the threads it infests.
    Last edited by Tx_Aggie; 01-14-19 at 21:45.

  9. #29
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    Are we still all up on the Winchester silvertip? Yes let's bring up 1986 tech! Do you compare anything else to 1986?

    If we're going to use that event as justification.....I have a friend who's dad had 10 rounds of 7.62x39 emptied into his chest and left to die. After 3 days he was found and still alive! Must mean that all fmj sucks and all rifle rounds sucks! By your definition
    Last edited by Arik; 01-14-19 at 22:01.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tx_Aggie View Post
    I said none of that, but thanks for the thoughtful, considerate response...

    There is a small but vocal, and stubbon, contingent of members who will thread-jack any question or post that has to do with handgun caliber, for the sole purpose of preaching the superiority of the holy full-metal-jacket.

    They insist that anyone who chooses modern expanding ammo does so for no other reason than that they have been duped by bullet manufacturers, and have even included state and local LE, the FBI, and even SOCOM (all groups of guys who actually shoot people with expanding handgun bullets) in their list of idiots who are too stupid to know they should be using FMJs and/or Hardcast instead of expanding pistol bullets.

    The constant thread jacking by a couple of stubborn members is tiring and really just undermines productive discussion in the threads it infests.
    That's your opinion. It doesn't reflect everyone else's. There are some people that agree too in this thread and others. Are they part of the infestation too?

    This is a gun forum. It's propose is to talk about guns and ammo. You can agree with someone or not. You can respectfully counter someone's opinion or not.
    Last edited by wtm75; 01-14-19 at 22:05.

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