Is 9mm The Way To Go?

[Arik]

Here you go

There is a small but vocal, and stubbon, contingent of members who will thread-jack any question or post that has to do with handgun caliber, for the sole purpose of preaching the superiority of the holy full-metal-jacket.

.

There are some people that agree too in this thread and others. Are they part of the infestation too?

Those are the "some people"

[Ron3]

FMJ 9mm and up has it's place in military use.

If more tissue damage and maybe more "stopping power" in your 9mm or more powerfull pistol choose a JHP that YOU like. There are many.

Even .45 fans J. Thompson and L. La Garde saw the benefit of expanding pistol bullets after their animal testing:

"...None of the full jacketed or metal patched bullets, (all of which were less than caliber 0.45) tried by the Board had the necessary shock effect or stopping power. Their lack of these necessary qualities was principally observed in their less destructive action in the ends of bones and non-vital parts, which comprises a large part of the target area presented by the human or animal body. They make more complete penetrations of these parts than do the large lead bullets mentioned above and escape with a considerable part of their energy, which is lost so far as shock effect is concerned.

In case of an automatic pistol of the caliber recommended, or higher, be adopted for service at any time, thereby necessitating a jacket, the point of the jacket should be made thinner and the lead core softer than in the case of any jacketed bullet tried by or known to the members of the Board. In the metal patched bullet, the nose should be made of the softest lead, permitting ready loading from the magazine into the chamber. The object of this is, of course, to secure “mushrooming” of bullet, with its attendant great shock effect and stopping power.

There being no further business before it, the Board adjourned March 18, 1904.

(Signed) Louis A. La Garde,
Major & Surgeon, U.S.A., President

(Signed) Jon. T. Thompson,
Captain, Ordnance Department, U.S.A., Member and Recorder."


For civilian SD, really, use what you like. If you want good, measured performance (penetration and expansion) then yes, use at least a 9mm pistol or 4 inch barreled .38 special.
If you can't find one small enough, or it recoils more than you like, get something less powerful and carry solid bullets in it. (although it gets debatable in .32 mag, .38 special snubs, and .380's)

[Arik]

Are we seriously quoting tests from 115 years ago?

[Todd.K]

Because sometimes it isn't enough penetration. The 12 inch minimum is the minimum. It'll work in most cases but not all.

That is one of the nice things about modern HP loads, most have been tested to the FBI standard and you can pick one with the performance you prefer. Not sure when I've seen the last FMJ test, but I recall that some did very poorly on the auto glass...

[Tx_Aggie]

wtm75: This has all been beat to death in several other threads, so rather than argue I'll ask you a question:

Why do you think LE migrated to using JHP pistol ammunition in the 90s?

[Ron3]

Are we seriously quoting tests from 115 years ago?

Yup! This discussion is even older!

[wtm75]

wtm75: This has all been beat to death in several other threads, so rather than argue I'll ask you a question:

Why do you think LE migrated to using JHP pistol ammunition in the 90s?

Since you are asking...(I don't want to offend anyone here otherwise) Because everyone else did. When the FBI adopted the .40 after the 10mm because no other 9mm hollow point at the time had consistent penetration, most departments followed suit. Now most are following them again back to 9mm.

I think you misunderstand what's being said. No one here is saying that a FMJ or Hard Cast is better. All that's being said is the obvious. It penetrates more than a hollow point and it'll kill just the same if a vital organ is struck just the same as a hollow point. Where some of you guys are disagreeing is that a hollow point that does 13 inches on average will penetrate sufficiently in all cases. I'm saying that it doesn't in all. There is evidence of that from many incidents out there of under-penetration.

If a hollow point was designed that penetrated 18 inches consistently through all common barriers though gel for a service caliber, I would buy it. But technology isn't there yet. About the best is the Hornady Critical Duty in 9mm for example which barely expands to a little larger than a .40 cal ball round and change to get to that penetration number which the FBI recently adopted and even then it doesn't consistently penetrate to 18 inches from a duty sized barrel.

Hollow points are better as long as they get there. With service calibers however, they don't reach the 18in mark all the time. If my daily carry was a .44 Magnum, I would carry hollow points all the time since there are loads that consistently reach 20 inches after expansion. But carrying a .44 magnum isn't feasible as a daily carry.

[ubet]

I've shot enough animals with a pistol both hp and fmj, I will never carry fmj. A 230gr gold dot at 950fps penetrates well and dumps a lot of energy on the way through. A 230gr fmj just pases straight though with very little energy dump.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[MegademiC]

Since you are asking...(I don't want to offend anyone here otherwise) Because everyone else did. When the FBI adopted the .40 after the 10mm because no other 9mm hollow point at the time had consistent penetration, most departments followed suit. Now most are following them again back to 9mm.

I think you misunderstand what's being said. No one here is saying that a FMJ or Hard Cast is better. All that's being said is the obvious. It penetrates more than a hollow point and it'll kill just the same if a vital organ is struck just the same as a hollow point. Where some of you guys are disagreeing is that a hollow point that does 13 inches on average will penetrate sufficiently in all cases. I'm saying that it doesn't in all. There is evidence of that from many incidents out there of under-penetration.

If a hollow point was designed that penetrated 18 inches consistently through all common barriers though gel for a service caliber, I would buy it. But technology isn't there yet. About the best is the Hornady Critical Duty in 9mm for example which barely expands to a little larger than a .40 cal ball round and change to get to that penetration number which the FBI recently adopted and even then it doesn't consistently penetrate to 18 inches from a duty sized barrel.

Hollow points are better as long as they get there. With service calibers however, they don't reach the 18in mark all the time. If my daily carry was a .44 Magnum, I would carry hollow points all the time since there are loads that consistently reach 20 inches after expansion. But carrying a .44 magnum isn't feasible as a daily carry.

How well does fmj perform after penetrating steel or autoglass?

[Tx_Aggie]

Since you are asking...(I don't want to offend anyone here otherwise) Because everyone else did. When the FBI adopted the .40 after the 10mm because no other 9mm hollow point at the time had consistent penetration, most departments followed suit. Now most are following them again back to 9mm.

In most cases the move to JHP was motivated by the frequency of accidental shootings caused by ricocheting and/or overpenetrating solid bullets.

From the NYT:

According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full-metal-jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects.

53% of these accidental shootings were missed shots, while 33% were because of a “shoot-through” of the intended target.

If we count bullets that went through objects to hit unintended victims (13 percent), approx 46% of these accidental shootings were by over-penetrating bullets.

In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by police gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed though other people.

42% of those shootings were by bullets that passed through the bodies of the intended targets after the bullets struck the people they were aimed at.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/n...r-bullets.html

You guys (you, Uni-Vibe, etc.) are advocating using a target (or hardcast hunting) bullet as a self-defense load because you want it to over-penetrate, and have stated you know the solid projectile will most likely exit your target without much loss in velocity, something you seem to view as a positive.

I can only imagine you see this as a plus either because you're completely indifferent to the impact it might have on a bystander (should you have to actually shoot someone), or because it just never occurs to you to consider anyone other than the person you imagine shooting at. I suppose you might just believe you'll never miss and can always be sure there's nothing important behind your target, but a person would really have to be pretty naive to believe something like that.

I think you misunderstand what's being said. No one here is saying that a FMJ or Hard Cast is better...etc....etc...

You say this before going on to state that FMJ & Hardcast are better because JHP don't consistently penetrate past 18" all of the time...

I understand your point just fine, I just disagree with your conclusion in part because I think you're ignoring the liability of shoot-throughs.

In the end, you guys seem willing to accept the consequences of massive over-penetration and any injury to innocents that might accompany it. Yes, you should absolutely know what's behind your target, but why take a chance with a projectile that is almost certain to pass through your attacker, potentially injuring or killing a bystander (who may even be one of your loved ones)?

As has been said before by others, good quality modern expanding pistol bullets (not older designs, cheap crap, or target hollow points), those that meet FBI standards and those put forth by folks like Dr Roberts, provide a balance between adequate penetration (including through heavy clothing), tissue damage (in the event you don't make a CNS hit), and prevention of over penetration.