Is 9mm The Way To Go?

[Uni-Vibe]

I agree about the comments above on the .380.

Indeed, if all cartridges performed the same, we'd all be carrying .25ACP guns with a million rounds. Zero recoil, maximal capacity.

But the little .25 round can't be counted on to penetrate enough to cause incapacitation. Neither do .32 ACP or .380. So we carry the 9mm, which does the job for the most capacity and the least recoil (cheaper practice ammo is a boon).

[Ron3]

I agree about the comments above on the .380.

Indeed, if all cartridges performed the same, we'd all be carrying .25ACP guns with a million rounds. Zero recoil, maximal capacity.

But the little .25 round can't be counted on to penetrate enough to cause incapacitation. Neither do .32 ACP or .380. So we carry the 9mm, which does the job for the most capacity and the least recoil (cheaper practice ammo is a boon).

.32 and up penetrates just fine with fmj. The weaker stuff from a short barrel about 14/15 inches in ballistics gel testing. The hotter stuff from a long barrel 17-20. Numbers often vary with the amount of tumbling. Its enough.

.25 usually only gets 10-12 inches in ballistics gel testing.

[Uni-Vibe]

.32 and up penetrates just fine with fmj. The weaker stuff from a short barrel about 14/15 inches in ballistics gel testing. The hotter stuff from a long barrel 17-20. Numbers often vary with the amount of tumbling. Its enough.

.25 usually only gets 10-12 inches in ballistics gel testing.

I was talking about penetration in human bodies. Anything smaller than 9mm or .38 spl has a tendency to deflect off bones. (I'd assume .327 Magnum won't suffer from this problem, but I haven't seen forensics on anybody shot with one).

[Ron3]

I was talking about penetration in human bodies. Anything smaller than 9mm or .38 spl has a tendency to deflect off bones. (I'd assume .327 Magnum won't suffer from this problem, but I haven't seen forensics on anybody shot with one).

Humans are a huge variable. Calibrated gelatin is the best we have.

Any pistol can deflect off bone. The faster and less round it is the less likely it will. But even 9mm deflects off heads sometimes. And sometimes .22's and other small bullets perform amazing feats of penetration.

I think some kind of ricochet testing would be neat.

[FightinQ]

Humans are a huge variable. Calibrated gelatin is the best we have.

Any pistol can deflect off bone. The faster and less round it is the less likely it will. But even 9mm deflects off heads sometimes. And sometimes .22's and other small bullets perform amazing feats of penetration.

I think some kind of ricochet testing would be neat.

There was a drug turf involved execution in Cottonwood, AZ where the killer used a CZ52 at almost point blank range. 7.62×25mm Tokarev, no matter what variant of ammunition was used it was still well over a 1,000 feet per second and did not penetrate but instead killed from blunt trauma after bouncing off of the skull. That was interesting reading the reports about it.

[Todd.K]

Humans are a huge variable. Calibrated gelatin is the best we have.

The windshield test is a pretty good example of heavy bone penetration.

I don't think I've seen a test less than 9mm, but I'm pretty confident they would do poorly.

[Ron3]

The windshield test is a pretty good example of heavy bone penetration.

I don't think I've seen a test less than 9mm, but I'm pretty confident they would do poorly.

Yea, I'd like to see some windshield testing done with small pistols, too.

Specifically fmj with .380, .32 acp, .32 mag, .25, and .38 special from a snub.

I recall Paul Harrell doing some testing like this. I'll look for it.

I suppose if a bullet cannot penetrate a windshield or loses a large amount (more than half?) Of its penetrating ability doing so it probably wont do well after penetrating bone, either.

But in all the tests I've seen online I dont ever recall even a .22lr from a pistol being stopped cold by a bone. It seems like any bullet can bust through a skull or rib or femur if the angle is right.

[FightinQ]

They make a Bone Simulant Plate that does this, as an auto glass test is not actually scientific if using as a substitute for human bones.

[Ron3]

They make a Bone Simulant Plate that does this, as an auto glass test is not actually scientific if using as a substitute for human bones.

That bone simulator would certainly be better!

[diving dave]

When I was a LEO in CA I responded to a reported shooting. Once on scene, found some blood, a few teeth and nearby a 380 casing.... followed the blood trail and found our victim sitting on a bus bench, spitting blood and cursing like a drunk sailor.. took a 380 point blank to the mouth, blew out his front teeth and lodged in the back of his throat. He was able to get into the ambulance on his own. 9mm at a minimum for me.