Vintage Trooper Shooting (1987)

[sundance435]

You guys have made me think of a couple other videos I used in training:

This one is the murder of Constable Darrel Lunsford, the In the Line of Duty video which I used is much clearer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejy1D1iOYYs

Things you should notice - one-on-one, then two-on-one, no effort to create distance to maintain advantage and keep both in front of him/in field of view; guy puts hat on roof, pretty obvious signal 'there's gonna be some violence' went undetected; Lunsford walks between, turns back on subject; when attacked Lunsford had his maglite in hand, instead of using it to deliver blows to the guy's head and spine, Lunsford goes to the ground with both the flashlight and the guy's DL in hand (this is why at our Academy our 250-300 student officers a year did drop drills in the gym and on the range).

This was a tragedy borne-out largely because, IMO, Constable Lunsford had never faced much resistance, he was a big man, gruff looking and talking, up until this point folks had complied. He got complacent.

The Lunsford video is the one that kept me up at night. Had nightmares about similar situations, in addition to the 1000lb trigger pull.

I went through the academy in 1987. Ah, the memories. I carried a S&W Mod 66 for a year and a half until I was able to save up for a Sig P226. Fortunately, I worked for a department where you could carry anything as long as it was on the approved roster. I had the 2nd Sig in the county. No one knew what they were back then. I seriously considered the S&W 645 as well as the B-92F. If you carried a wheel gun, magnum loads were ENCOURAGED in my state of Texas.

True... If you wanted decent body armor then, you bought your own.

F*** I'm getting old. So, for 1987... That was state of the are chit back in the day. Back then, we made do with a six shooter, and carried 18 rounds total on us. Only about HALF of us had hand held radios, and there was a pump 12ga in the car. Back-up was minutes away, so you just "handled things" or got your @$$ kicked. What a feeling it was when I switched from the revolveer with 18 rounds on me to a P226 with 46 rounds on me. About the same time, I became one of the first (possibly the first) patrol officer in my A/O that was carbine equipped and qualified. Yes I BOUGHT my own carbine too...

A lot of good cops were killed back then. Things were pretty hot in the late 80's and early 90's. Heck, they are now too. Y'all be careful out there.

When my uncle started, you were "that guy" if you were carrying an auto that wasn't a 1911 (basically a Hi Power or early Smith auto) - if it was a 1911, you were some salty, grizzled 'Nam vet or something. Illinois State Police started the ball rolling on autos when the adopted the Smith 39. In the South and West I think it was more common to see guys carrying more than 12 rounds on the belt in some Old West looking setups (judging from pictures - saw one of a guy with rounds on the belt and on the holster), but not in the North and Midwest. I also know an old sheriff who had to be one of the first "saves" with body armor in the late 70's/early 80's. His wife gave it to him for Christmas, made him wear it, and he was in a car accident a few days later with it on - doc said that's what saved him.

It's good to remember what it was like in the 80's and 90's - I'm not trying to cheapen the deaths of officers killed by gunfire today, but if you compare it to the 80's and 90's, it's like Pleasantville vs. The Wild West. Auto accidents, too.

[officerX]

I understand your sentiment, but if he wasn't there, the other deputy would have gotten double teamed without a doubt. The guy on the hood seemed to look for his chance about a dozen times.

Very true, officer presence probably made the difference. But there were so many other things he could have done. As soon as the trooper said "gun" he should have put his guy in cuffs, put him in the back of the car, and had gun drawn and eyes on the other guy. Could have gone A LOT worse.

[Det-Sog]

The Lunsford video is the one that kept me up at night.

Me too. Texas was a tight knit community. We all knew that could have been any one of us. Two of the three major drug highways in Texas ran through my patrol district...

When my uncle started, you were "that guy" if you were carrying an auto that wasn't a 1911 (basically a Hi Power or early Smith auto) - if it was a 1911, you were some salty, grizzled 'Nam vet or something. -snip-

It's good to remember what it was like in the 80's and 90's - I'm not trying to cheapen the deaths of officers killed by gunfire today, but if you compare it to the 80's and 90's, it's like Pleasantville vs. The Wild West. Auto accidents, too.

Yes... There were two types of 1911 carriers back then. Remember the 1911 was originally designed for ball ammo. With that said... As LEOs were carrying HPs, the two types of officers were the group that bought series 70s and just carried them "as is", and the group that went out and spent a months pay on a good gunsmith re-work... So, the ones that paid the original the gun price again to make the them run better did OK. Sadly, this was a small group. The majority just kept them as is, stock out of the box.. So at qualification time, the stock ones were notorious for malfunctioning. Mainly stove piping. NOW add that back then, if you had a malfunction on the range, the process was to raise your hand so the instructor could come help you diagnose and clear it... Cant make that up. At least that changed with the incorporation of malfunction drills in a year or two later. With that said, by "modern" standards, the average 1911 was notoriously unreliable back then unless you had them smithed. At least 1/4 of the 1911 guys in my department would have a malfunction at the range every time we went... Then there was the group that did their own work and made them worse... I just wasn't going to go that route.

With the firepower the crackheads in my A/O had, I wanted a reliable semi-auto with a lot of bullets available. Looking back, that P226 was the best decision I ever made.

Funny, in perspective, it WAS the wild west at least until the early 90's. When I went on patrol in 1987, "most" officers still carried wheel guns and just had a pump shotgun in the car and carried a full sized Mag-Lite or Streamlight flashlight. Handheld radios and reliable body armor were a luxury still not mainstream. Most departments were still using non-trunking VHF radios with whip "CB style" antennas on their cars. Seeing a MDT (computer in car) was like witnessing a shuttle launch... It really wasn't that much different than it was in the 50s, 60s and 70s... It was finally around 1990 or 91 when things really started taking off and morphing into where it is now. Sadly, it took the deaths of many officers to make officer training, safety and proper equipment a main priority.

You guys be careful out there.

[Leuthas]

I could never be a law enforcement officer.

[Firefly]

I could never be a law enforcement officer.

It’s not that bad. It’s like 70% boredom and 30% sheer terror.
I couldn’t jump out of a plane everyday or do 20 mile ruck marches yet there are 18 yos today who do and do so with a decent attitude.

It takes all kinds.
If I had it to do over again, I’d be a poet

[Leuthas]

It’s not that bad. It’s like 70% boredom and 30% sheer terror.
I couldn’t jump out of a plane everyday or do 20 mile ruck marches yet there are 18 yos today who do and do so with a decent attitude.

It takes all kinds.
If I had it to do over again, I’d be a poet

I couldn't think of a polite way to say I'd shoot every damn scumbag I came across. That trooper had serious patience with the creep.

I like the more baseline idea of peacekeeping and being a servant to the community at large, but I don't see myself asking a grown man to drop a gun twice.

[SteyrAUG]

Very true, officer presence probably made the difference. But there were so many other things he could have done. As soon as the trooper said "gun" he should have put his guy in cuffs, put him in the back of the car, and had gun drawn and eyes on the other guy. Could have gone A LOT worse.

I agree, there were about a dozen things he could have done with little or no effort at risk that would have been a lot more helpful.

Likely he was still doing mental gymnastics and trying to catch up to the fact that "Yes, this really is a gun situation" while trying to remember procedure from 40 years ago.

[Firefly]

Policing today is hewn from the mistakes of others.

At one point, Policework vacillated between "Bubba just needs a good talking to" and "Bubba needs killing".

No inbetween.

And now....well...there's an app and a form for that.