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Thread: Criterion vs FN CHF Barrels

  1. #31
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    Goldmine of information! Thank you. Very interesting to know your experience and perspective. I really appreciate it.


    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    The Hodge barrels is the widest varying to the FN lightweight design that's seen in the Centurion, Noveske, and others. The Mountain is the same less the lightened profile froward the gas block journal.

    So you want to know performance...Let's say:
    Excellent: MOA with 2+ factory loads with sub MOA potential
    Good: 1-1.25 MOA with at least 1 load, no more than 1.5 MOA w/ quality factory
    "Meh": 1.5ish MOA consistency
    Poor: 2 MOA is all you're going to get

    The Mountain's: 1 Good, 1 Meh
    BCM: 1 Good, 1 Meh, 1 Poor
    FN: 1 Poor
    Centurion: 2 Good
    Hodge: 1 Excellent, 1 Good (at least...limited range time)
    Noveske: 1 Meh

    Pretty much all had a go with at least a 1-4x or 1-6x and had a Geissele trigger and free-float rail (KAC, Larue, DD, Geissele or Hodge/MEGA) and BH Match ammo at the least. Again, I can't confirm nor deny subtleties in tolerance stacking or different muzzle devices affecting accuracy in a significant ways.

    To put it plainly, 1/2 of the lot could out-shoot my Colts consistently...the other 1/2 not so much.

    HK...now I'll admit I'm not the fan I once was, but they have always shot around MOA with Hornady or BH. I actually had one out-shoot a Noveske stainless with more than a few different factory loads. What's funny is they are slow when you chrono them...they pretty much are about 100fps slower than their DI Colt counterpart.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Im curious if you are seeing improved accuracy out of the Hodge and Centurions. Rumint says they are spec'd with tapered bores to improved accuracy.
    While not solely the best ones, they seem to be the most consistent.

    I am regretful that those goons at ADCO ruined my heavier "medium" profile Centurion FN...I wish I could have done more testing on that thing. Knowing now some of the details I would overlook back then, I think I could do it more justice now.

    I've heard the whole "tapered bore" thing from both FN and HK before. Cut-down's have shot well, the precision community used to argue in circles about if a .299 "tight bore" mattered for 308, and some have said the taper is a byproduct of the CHF process to remove the mandrill and is just cleverly marketed as a benefit. Hard to say. I'm oldschool and say that profile matters too. At the very least, I have confidence in Jim and Monty and their prospective missions.

    I dunno...the older I get and the more guns I complete, the more I/we overthink some of the unimportant voodoo and don't pay enough attention to the little things that stack up and bite us. Like I said...probably not as many bad barrels as there are bad builds, bad shooters, bad ammo, or just plain bad days at the range...but the barrel takes the blame.
    Last edited by pointblank4445; 01-23-19 at 16:58.

  3. #33
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    For the record, I'm more than likely going to piece together an upper with a Criterion hybrid 14.5 middy. So maybe I'll be able to add that for a direct comparison in time.

  4. #34
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    I should have stated equal specifications traditional versus chf instead of QC.

    On the tightness, as I have seen mentioned a few times, the tightest a chamber or bore can ever be is when the tooling is close to it's end of life.


    Also, do any companies that offer chf and traditional barrels that are similar in materials and intended use ever sell the chf barrels for a lower cost than the traditional? I am not aware of any where that is the case.

  5. #35
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    I want a true 5.56 NATO spec chamber in my fighting rifle.
    *** AMMO MATTERS ***

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggy View Post
    I want a true 5.56 NATO spec chamber in my fighting rifle.
    If you want more accuracy out of a factory chambering, you're probably going to have to go with some sort of compromise of a chamber...Wylde, Mod 0, or some of the varying "5.56 match" chambers that all closely relate to the Wylde.

    But for the most part, I agree.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    I've heard the whole "tapered bore" thing from both FN and HK before. Cut-down's have shot well, the precision community used to argue in circles about if a .299 "tight bore" mattered for 308, and some have said the taper is a byproduct of the CHF process to remove the mandrill and is just cleverly marketed as a benefit. Hard to say. I'm oldschool and say that profile matters too. At the very least, I have confidence in Jim and Monty and their prospective missions.
    Just some more info:
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinch View Post
    I was given a link so I figured I’d come over and respond.
    Looks like you guys pretty much have the concept. The bore gets slightly smaller as it moves to the muzzle end of the barrel.
    I did not come up with the concept and it is not new. So why have you not seen taper bores in the AR platform before?? Probably because using hammer forged barrels is a fairly new thing in the AR rifles. Taper bore is something that is only realistically done by the hammer forging process. The mandrel that is used to put the rifling in the barrel is slightly tapered and this leave the tapered dimension in the barrels as the forging machine beats the blank around the mandrel.
    So what does it offer you? Taper bore gives you a slight boost in velocity over a non-taper bore barrel and it help negate any potential accuracy issues caused by chroming the bore since it is not always a consistent thickness.
    Taper bore does not extend the life of the barrel our barrels last longer because they are hammer forged and made from a different spec material that was engineered for machine guns. Hammer forging work hardens the material and the chrome is thicker than a normal barrel. The barrel steel is the same used on the MAG58, 240, M249, MK46, and MK48 machine guns it is also the same barrel material and process used on the 1/2moa sniper rifles FN won the FBI contract with and that are still in service. The FN SPR sniper rifles use hammer forged hard chrome lined taper bore barrels to get ½ moa accuracy and this is the same barrel specs and processes I have done to my barrels.
    So who else uses this?
    Obviously FN, who has the time, money, and resources to do the research to find this type of barrel steel and proof out this type of process and specs. FN hands down manufactures the best machine guns in the world and there isn’t even a close second in this field there isn’t even any two companies you can combine that has as much institutional knowledge as they do in making beltfed machine guns.
    HK also taper bores their hammer forged barrels for all their rifles.
    So why do I use it?
    Well I didn’t really think much about hammer forging and taper bore before I was sent to work doing combat systems development and operational testing for SOCOM. There I worked on several weapons programs one that used these barrels on one of the rifles we were testing. I got to observes millions of dollars worth of R&D and testing that was done and got to see hundreds of thousands of rounds run through these weapons and got to see firsthand that these barrels did indeed last allot longer and on a whole shoot better than standard button rifled barrels that were chrome lined. The difference was significant and I wondered why the hell no one made these barrels for the M4/AR rifles so I figured I would bring them to market myself. I have over 20 years of service and have shot out plenty of M4’s in my time and can with full confidence say this is a improvement I’ve seen it first hand.

    Thanks
    Monty
    Source: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...5608#post25608

    I have heard of a complete Hodge Mod 2 upper shooting 4 MOA at 100 using 77 gr BHA, with multiple shooters trying, so lemons clearly exist.
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

    老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    Just some more info:


    Source: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...5608#post25608

    I have heard of a complete Hodge Mod 2 upper shooting 4 MOA at 100 using 77 gr BHA, with multiple shooters trying, so lemons clearly exist.
    Damn...been many a moon since I've seen something shoot that bad that wasn't M855 or Federal 193. Don't suppose you recall the muzzle device on it...

  9. #39
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    reference for all bargain hunters out there: https://aimsurplus.com/bear-creek-ar...dlength-barrel

    Bear Creek Arsenal currently on sale from a reputable vendor. $49.95, 16" 416R stainless steel mid-length, government profile.

    "All Finished Barrels go through a 100% Inspection Process. Inspections Equipment includes CMMs and Air Gauges for the Bores. BCA's expectations is that our Barrels, 16 inch or longer, will hold a 1.000" MOA at 100 yards with appropriate ammo and shooting techniques."

    I'm really serious about just buying one of those out of stupid curiosity and giving it to somebody like pointblank4445 to test. probably going to be 4 MOA barrel, but who knows. i'm even surprised they can sell them for that cheap out of 416R steel.
    Last edited by alx01; 01-24-19 at 01:45.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    Damn...been many a moon since I've seen something shoot that bad that wasn't M855 or Federal 193. Don't suppose you recall the muzzle device on it...
    No idea. The story was told to me by a student who was with me in a Blowers class, who had witnessed this issue at a Defoor class he had attended a just a few weeks prior.

    I also had a friend that was averaging 4 MOA out of his new SR-15 Mod 2, using various factory match ammo; using his handloads, he was able to get down to 2 MOA on occasion. He had to send that back to KAC, who said it was due to a burr at the gas port. I believe after coming back from KAC he was getting around an MOA with factory match ammo.
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

    老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。

    https://www.instagram.com/defaultmp3/

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