Question: Should Troops and Cops Stick with Issued Weapons?

[butlers]

All,

I don't know how to phrase this (so I did a few fruitless searches for my question), but here it goes:

Should those who carry weapons on duty stick with the same kind of weapons for home/personal use?

For example, let's say you have an enthusiast who builds his own AR pistol with many popular upgrades (e.g. 11.5" barrel, free-float handguards, Geissele drop-in trigger, etc). He also happens to be in the military -- a regular joe (not high-speed, low-drag) -- and is issued a no-frills M4. If he ever has to use said duty rifle to engage bad guys overseas (and under stress), is it possible for him to have been "spoiled" by all the Gucci gear from his home AR pistol? So much so that it actually negatively affects his performance with his issued weapon (e.g. his Geissele is so different from the standard mil-spec that he keeps f***ing up the trigger reset in rapid fire)?

Or imagine a law enforcement officer with his custom Glock at home (e.g. trigger job, compensator), but stock Glock on his belt while on duty. Will trigger time with the former negatively affect his use of the latter in an officer involved shooting?

I realize that if you're really good at shooting, it doesn't matter what platform you use (so in the military example above, those in CAG/DEVGRU don't care what kind of trigger they have).

But for those of us who won't achieve that kind of mastery (because of a lack of time, money, or motivation), is there an argument to be made for those in uniform to deliberately stick with less-refined, ordinary/unoriginal stock weapons, in order to ensure that muscle memory, fine motor skills, etc are consistent between duty and home/personal weapons?

Respectfully,
butlers

[FightinQ]

My answer is no. If I am issued a no thrills stock M4 along with an M9, I've trained enough with it to know that muscle memory knows the difference between the issued M4 or any of my other rifles that are not the M4. Same for the M9 that's DA/SA and my personal 320 that is a striker.


I've heard/read that argument before, where someone says that they only want one gun to do it so they know it and themselves when using it perfectly. Nothing wrong with that line of thinking but someone as say me, who has a bunch of handguns or rifles for different purposes from pocket to deep woods protection, if you shoot your guns enough then each and everyone becomes it's own memory that will not interfere when using the issued whatever which reinforces that the one gun to do it all and keep it simple isn't as strong in reality as it is in concept. I know people whom only own that one gun, and I can say hilariously that they sure do not know how to use it as they think that they can.

[FightinQ]

DT...

[1168]

I think you’re not entirely wrong. Practicing with any reasonable AR will make that Soldier in your example more proficient with his M4 than no practice at all. And practice with any AR will probably benefit him more than practice with an AK or HK91 would. His best bet would be a 6920 SOCOM, but any AR is a good thing.

As for pistols, I’m of a similar mind. I’ve found that my performance suffers when going back and forth with dissimilar weapons. Such as Glock vs M9 vs 1911. Particulary with Glocks. I’ve recently switched back to all Glock for carry and competition for this reason. Job requirement. However, I don’t feel the need to keep them all stock.

For what its worth, the guys that are at the apex of proficiency with the 416 are issued two upper that are set up differently, and two pistols that are set up differently. Or they’ll use someting completely different, depending on the task at hand. Such as a Mk46. The important part is that they train almost daily with these tools.

[mark5pt56]

I think it depends on training level along with other attributes. Myself and others I know can carry a Glock 17/19 one day and work a group on an M9 one day, a 226 the next and a 229DAK, etc. Then I had someone who wanted to carry a 1911 off duty and didn't know how to operate the thumb safety-no qual on that. If someone wants to increase skill sets and actually trains with that platform, I think it's ok. More than likely if someone doesn't train, they won't invest in other than issue

moving to training.

[Budget]

Until I was fortunate enough to be issued my own AR and was able to use my G19, I fell into the Gucci at home/shit at work category. It sucks our patrol guys are stuck rolling with plastic Glock sights and 20 year old rifles.

I just wish PDs would get away from what's good for the goose is good for the gander mentality. What I see a lot, is bosses saying nice guns cost too much and you can just use pooled rifles. The problem with pool guns, is that never are all of them in proper working order (lights/optics dead, carry handle sights all sorts of messed up), but the bosses say that using your own is too much liability. Its something that kills me inside.

So for home, I would set up what is best for you but understand that work guns will never be to that same quality. I can still shoot irons fine, but certainly not my preference.

So no, I dont see an issue with having cool toys, as long as no one messes with issued guns and you confirm zero with them a couple times a year.

[Arik]

NYPD sidearm have to be bought by the officer

Philadelphia PA PD issue G17 but officers can purchase their own 19/23/22/21/30. However, if I'm not mistaking, ammo other than 9mm is also purchased by the officer. As far as I know rifles are issued

Buddy of mine works for a small department in suburban Philadelphia. I know they had to provide their own guns. I don't believe the department cared as long as it was duty size, reliable and functional. Basically anything that was used as a duty gun current or past. I know he at one point carried his dad's S&W 5906 back maybe 10 years ago. Now they are all G23 but I don't know if the department standardized and issued those or they just made the officers buy their own

[turnburglar]

I dont see it as being that bad. Obviously if you have the change to build yourself a clone of your work gun and can get extra reps in personal time, that would be beneficial. But I dont really see my skills drop off incredibly switching between a milspec single stage and my SSA. I think as long as you keep the manual of arms still the same, a shooter knows how to shoot.

[butlers]

if you shoot your guns enough then each and everyone becomes it's own memory that will not interfere when using the issued whatever which reinforces that the one gun to do it all and keep it simple isn't as strong in reality as it is in concept. I know people whom only own that one gun, and I can say hilariously that they sure do not know how to use it as they think that they can.

For what its worth, the guys that are at the apex of proficiency with the 416 are issued two upper that are set up differently, and two pistols that are set up differently. Or they’ll use someting completely different, depending on the task at hand. Such as a Mk46. The important part is that they train almost daily with these tools.

I think it depends on training level along with other attributes. Myself and others I know can carry a Glock 17/19 one day and work a group on an M9 one day, a 226 the next and a 229DAK, etc. Then I had someone who wanted to carry a 1911 off duty and didn't know how to operate the thumb safety-no qual on that. If someone wants to increase skill sets and actually trains with that platform, I think it's ok. More than likely if someone doesn't train, they won't invest in other than issue

I would agree with all of you that a lot of this comes down to training. I'm sure we all know highly proficient shooters who could pick up any platform -- from a 100+ year-old mil-surp 1903 or Mosin to the latest-and-greatest HK -- and do just fine with it.

I guess I'm thinking about the average joe in uniform. The quartermaster Soldier or communications Marine who's issued a service rifle, but doesn't employ it to the same extent as an operator (or even your basic rifleman/grunt). The small town patrolman who's been lucky enough never to fire his weapon in anger, but enjoys shooting with his buddies every other weekend. These men shoot with their home/personal/range weapons far more (hundreds to thousands of rounds per year) than they ever do with their service weapons (usually just annual qualifications).

So what happens if they suddenly have to employ their duty rifle or pistol? If the Soldier or Marine has a short-barreled AR pistol at home with a super high-end two-stage trigger, is he going to be at a disservice when he unexpectedly has to put rounds downrange with his plain-jane M4 -- transitioning between targets, rapid-fire, etc? If the cop gets into the first shootout of his career, but 95% of the shots he's ever fired in his life are with his Gucci Glock, is his muscle memory going to work against him when he draws the department-issue Sig 226 and has to work a DA/SA trigger he (normally) deals with just once a year?

[FightinQ]

I would agree with all of you that a lot of this comes down to training. I'm sure we all know highly proficient shooters who could pick up any platform -- from a 100+ year-old mil-surp 1903 or Mosin to the latest-and-greatest HK -- and do just fine with it.

I guess I'm thinking about the average joe in uniform. The quartermaster Soldier or communications Marine who's issued a service rifle, but doesn't employ it to the same extent as an operator (or even your basic rifleman/grunt). The small town patrolman who's been lucky enough never to fire his weapon in anger, but enjoys shooting with his buddies every other weekend. These men shoot with their home/personal/range weapons far more (hundreds to thousands of rounds per year) than they ever do with their service weapons (usually just annual qualifications).

So what happens if they suddenly have to employ their duty rifle or pistol? If the Soldier or Marine has a short-barreled AR pistol at home with a super high-end two-stage trigger, is he going to be at a disservice when he unexpectedly has to put rounds downrange with his plain-jane M4 -- transitioning between targets, rapid-fire, etc? If the cop gets into the first shootout of his career, but 95% of the shots he's ever fired in his life are with his Gucci Glock, is his muscle memory going to work against him when he draws the department-issue Sig 226 and has to work a DA/SA trigger he (normally) deals with just once a year?

Let me point this out from my own experience, and I am not a cop but I have served in the US Army. Way back when I purchased an Colt Sporter A2 type prior to the AB of 94 because I thought that it was cool to have just like what I was being issued minus the fun switch. The parts of today wasn't really a thing back in the early to late 90's. So stock was easy to do since there was no other options. I used my rifle to improve my marksmanship so I could easily master the zero and qualification phase of BRM. It looked cool to have as a sign of respect for your own ability and because it gave promotion points in an MOS that literally was waiting for someone else to either die or retire in order to make the cut off for promotions to E-5 and even E-6. Fast forward to from then to right after OIF 1 and suddenly with the dawn of the AWB of 94, I wanted my own M4 type but what I wanted was going to be better than what I had in war because I now had options and because I had felt naked and defenseless without it nearby even though I was back in the safety of CONUS, chalk that itself to PTSD or whatever after being over 16 months there while I was in 1AD. Nothing really changed from what I did on my time and dime to what I did on the Army's time and dime with its usage. It's all training kicking in and it's been repetitive like an instinct that is not lost. Like riding a bicycle almost even.


Are you about to join a department or service?